can you be forced out of a long term job through lack of hours available?

[user1471504821]

I have worked for nearly 20 years providing student support for a large education provider and through certain decisions (too many extra employees being taken on a couple of years back when we could have relied on agency workers to mop up the few hours not covered) we are now in a situation where I am nowhere near the hours I need to survive.

The job is a permanent contract, but one where it's stated that they can't guarantee the hours available. We get work from Sept- May. We haven't had a written contract for about 6 years now- don't know if that's commonplace/acceptable? So effectively we work a zero hours contract. My question is- would I be able to request redundancy if it becomes untenable to survive or am I without any redress at all given the zero hours aspect? Or would the company be able to force my hand by offering ridiculously low hours?

There are too many variables here to give you any concrete advice I’m afraid.

It will largely depend on the contractual arrangements and whether legally you’re deemed to have continuous service as an employee. For example, are you permanent but only work set months each year, or are you usually offered a new contract for every separate annual engagement? It also depends whether you are a zero hours worker, or employee, as to your rights. And, of course, in the absence of any current contract (if applicable) whether you can have zero hours status at all; which would be unusual with no contract.

That's rubbish, support services where I used to work really suffered and the staff had their hours cut year on year.

thankyou both, the contract as I remember said hours up to 30 a week but that they couldn't be guaranteed. We always used to be issued a new contract every Sept but this hasn't happened for many years now. I'm going to give Acas a ring and see if they can shed any light. My naive hope was that with such long service I might be eligible for redundancy if insufficient hours were available. They certainly aren't prioritising the longest serving staff over those taken on 3 years ago so I guess that should give me an idea of our lack of worth.

Sorry, just to answer re employee or zero hours- a mixture I would say- we get sickness and holiday pay.

You’re entitled to redundancy pay if you can demonstrate that you are a) an employee and b) have sufficient continuity of service. Even if you work under annual contracts, it’s possible to “link” them to demonstrate continuity over a longer period of time, so all is not lost. You really do need to work out whether you’re a worker or employee though and your previous contracts should help with that (sickness and holiday pay also apply to workers so that isn’t indicative in itself!)

If you were entitled then your redundancy pay would be calculated on the basis of average wages for weeks where you receive pay, so you wouldn’t get nothing. They could however say your service has been broken if the gap is long enough.

The other thing to consider is whether you can claim redundancy from them yourself depending on what the contract says about lay off.

I think this is likely out of ACAS realm as it’s fairly legally complex - they largely read from a script and their advisors aren’t legally qualified. You probably need an employment lawyer for proper advice (sorry!)

Thanks so much for that answer- I enquired yesterday at HR and was told I was a worker not an employee and that my hours couldn't be guaranteed (like I didn't know that after all these years). I did find a letter from a few years ago saying I was now classified as permanent staff but don't think that helps me. I shan't trouble Acas with it then, If nothing else it's been a wakeup call re my loyalty to the job.

Good breakdown of worker Vs employee here: www.gov.uk/employment-status/employee (just in case HR is "mistaken").

Also, do you have free legal advice through a union / home insurance etc?

Thanks- reading that definition of a worker we wouldn't be entitled to redundancy. I am part of Unison, they are supposed to be getting back to me. Really appreciate all your advice, so kind.

Have you requested a copy of your contract from HR? That's a good starting point. I was a unison rep and we had a similar issue with support staff and got a good result in securing minimum contracted hours. So make sure the to gets involved and understands it impacts others, not just you. If everyone gets involved it'll be easier to get a good result.

Alternatively, if you're really looking to leave, see if your rep can approach the employer with the aim of securing a settlement agreement.

Thankyou JackieC, I have contacted the union and am awaiting a reply. HR were a bit abrupt when I enquired as to whether I was a worker or employee (though they checked the contract and said I was a worker) and said I should contact my dept manager if I had any queries.

That's a nice fob off from HR. They are far more likely to know your employment status from a legal perspective than your manager, who would be more likely to run off to HR for information!

I would write up a complete account of your service history including dates, plus salary progression incl current salary and gather up pay slips and employment paperwork and take it to a solicitor. It will be money well spent to have an expert view of this

You could try calling their bluff by getting a solicitor to send them a proposal for a financial settlement to release you from your employment rather than taking it to ET.

Thankyou for the support Daisychain, now I know I'm just a worker I am not entitled to redundancy should it come to that- which I suspect in May it will. I have worked Sept-May for 17 years for them, and was given a permanent contract (albeit as a worker) after 5 of those years. That's really good advice re paperwork.