Why is there bullying in the NHS?

[WhyOWhyOh]

I've never worked in the health industry, I'm a teacher. I have to admit there a few roles in the NHS I've considered career swapping for but it's just been day dreams for me so far.

One thing I read constantly is the bullying that goes on. What type of bullying, what's happened can anyone share their story? AIBU to ask?

I've been bullied in teaching. I don't know if it's an institutional thing. I left one job because of it. Experienced it in two other roles but I'm a fighter and so far not had to run away since.

So what happened to you if you've been bullied in the NHS and why do you think the bully did what they did?

I was treated very differently in my first teaching post to a colleague and was put in too many purposefully stressful situations that should have been shared equally at the time. I was ignored in team meetings, talked over etc so I just stopped contributing. My colleague got trained up and promoted when I got ignored etc, pure favouritism. My colleague was an ex pupil from that school and I've come to realise it's so incestuous in education. If you're an ex pupil returning as a teacher you're put on a pedestal. My second post found me being intimidated by my line manager, invading my space, towering over me, threats etc. He was like that I believe due to the insane pressure he was under from above.

Abusive culture that puts protecting the organisation above protecting patients or staff. "Protecting" the organisation has been allowed to become more important than the reason the organisation exists - caring and protecting.

Hence patients are routinely abused and NHS covers it up.

And staff are routinely abused and NHS covers it up.

And the public colludes in that culture of covering up abuse by shouting down anybody who raises concerns as an "NHS-basher".

Oooh one day I will write a book about my experiences in NHS hospitals... I have worked in several as an employee of a private company contracted to the NHS. I have seen horrible bullying on all levels, have been on the receiving end of some really bad behaviour and have had some horrific meetings with NHS managers.

The main issues are:

1. Blame culture. Everything that goes wrong, someone must be blamed. The person who gets blamed might have had a million other things to do but the thing they missed will be called out. Anyone who thinks they might be even slightly in the frame for something will quickly work on building allies and creating a good story.

1. Too many people doing stuff they shouldn't, other people covering for them and then loyalties and alliances build up, obstructing people's ability to be fair.

1. Inefficiency in lots of departments. Accounts blocked because invoices aren't paid, HR processes take months, waste is high and it's hard to get things to move quickly.

1. Your band is everything and there is a reluctance to work outside of your band, whether that's upwards or downwards. "I need a band 3 to do this, it's too junior for me" or "I'm only band 6, why should I do something my band 8b boss should be doing". In the private sector we all have to muck in with whatever needs doing.

1. Lots of unqualified people in managers' jobs who have no management experience but have been there donkeys years and they need to find something for them to do. They don't know how to manage teams or get the best out of people so encourage tale telling and gossiping and often find a scapegoat or two to put in the firing line.

There are some truly amazing people in the NHS but there is no doubt that bullying behaviour is rife. I have been on the receiving end occasionally and I have laughed at the bullies. I have seen people horribly affected by this behaviour though and that is sad.

I’ve worked in both education and the NHS and bullying is rife in both. Both similar in their hierarchical nature, although slightly worse in the NHS. In my last role I was referred to as “the band 3”. My name wasn’t even used. Your band is known instantly by others depending on the colour of your stripes.

Ive been employed by the NHS in a large teaching hospital for 10 years and I've never been bullied nor ever witnessed anyone being bullied. As a manager of a few teams myself if I have ever heard about staff potentially being bullied ive nipped it in the bud.

Yes its understaffed and under resourced but generally apart from pressure from management due to the above I definitely wouldn't have described it as bullying, just heated conversations because everyone is on their knees most the time. Maybe I have just been lucky. My managers (although some lazy) I would never describe as bullies.

There is more bullying in the NHS then there are cups of tea. I believe to enforce un realistic targets and as someone else stated to pass on the blame.

You literally have to try so hard to get sacked from the NHS it's almost impossible short of gross misconduct.

Bullying investigations take that long that by the time a "second" warning is put on someone's record, the first has actually expired and means nothing.

Instead of management just recognising bullying, even if it's been going on years, other people have reported incidents etc, you first have to make a complaint. After that you then have to keep a bloody diary of every date and time someone bullied or harassed you which could take months if it's not an every day thing, and sometimes even if it is. By that time people are so worn down they leave the department or trust entirely. The bullies are also usually so hard to get rid of because they have been there for years, having started when bullying wasn't taken seriously at all, so the red tape in managements eyes is not worth it and they would rather just wait it out til the victim leaves.

The toxic people are then free to bully a fresh set of employees and bitch about how high their staff turnover is. Ironically, the worst place I worked in the NHS for it was a bereavement office

Bullying can be bottom up too. I’ve worked with many excellent, caring junior staff who literally keep their departments working.

I’ve also worked with organisational terrorists who are resistant to any change. It can be about all manner of things; fear of change, worrying about being seen as inadequate, lack of skills, hanging on to perceived power or being made to follow procedure.

I’ve also been accused of bullying myself for turning a 5 day service into a seven day one. The NHS is run for the benefit of staff, not patients, don’tcha know?

What I would say is that whilst like any large organisation, there will be bullies, most people aren’t bullies.

What is it that you would be interested in working in OP?

I think some of the bullying also comes from people moving up the ranks from RN band 5 to 6, and 7 and not having any management training or experience. They have no clue how to manage people. So think that being rude and pushy is how you manage people.
Before moving up they should have some sort of management qualification that includes people skills.

No idea why but i guess it's a big reason why everyone's leaving.

Racism. I've been in 3 roles in 5 years and I'm leaving again ASAP because of racism. I've always got along with everyone, got on with my job etc. There's just always one person who tries their hardest to start making my life as difficult as possible and then I leave. Teams are often small so people are usually friends with the manager so won't take your concerns seriously. If there are other racist people they can also gang up up on you but most often, people see it and tell me they see it and know it's wrong but then they aren't willing to help speak up for me because...maybe they're worried people will turn on them. Power just goes to people's heads and there's a bit of mob mentality when everyone is similar and then there's one 'different' brown person. As I keep saying, I'm British but the most unwelcome I am every made to feel is always in my own country, in my job, in my own village. But even if I had been foreign, it's still completely unacceptable. People should be able to see beyond skin colour in 2021.

Because people with cluster b personalities are everywhere and of the worst of the worst, want to work where there are vulnerable people.

What should be done is that in any place where there are children, elderly or sick - people should be required to have two professional pychiatrists opinions that they are NOT narcissists, psychopaths or sociopaths (ect) before being employed to that role.

The same should go for applying to any position of management or authority over others, anywhere, in any company in my opinion.

Of course, this would be a nightmare to enforce.

Bit of there are no precautions against hiring abusive personalities then of course, abuse will prevail.

The NHS attracts a lot of "egos". The two areas i have worked in maternity and emergency are notorious for it, massive egos who like to think they are heros! They will literally bulldoze anyone who gets in their way.

@PinniGig

I think any profession that requires genuine, conscientious and honest people brings its fair share of bullying because in all walks of life, at every age and all four corners of the globe you also find those that prefer to skip out, cut corners and do things their way to suit.

Not specific to healthcare or nursing that's just human behaviour but in a health, social care or medical setting, you find or used to find a pattern of bullying older, more senior staff either taking younger, inexperienced staff under their wing to shape and mould them to suit and / or getting rid of the ones they can't win over and get on board and fast.

I started out in law initially and whilst I was on probation working as junior secretary, took on a second part time job doing one night a week in a local care home to top up extra spends for going daft at the weekend. Never thought I'd end up sidestepping into that for good but the abuse, bullying, horrific lack of shits given by anyone back in the 90's was dire. My day job working in the solicitors opened my eyes as well but fortunately I had seen the worst of both areas just as we rolled out a whole new world of care standards, legislation and safeguarding / whistle-blowing procedures which until then were non existent.

Interestingly when I went down a more specialist route of safeguarding, it struck me quite early on how care providers and services that were seemingly more robust, thorough and supposedly way ahead of everyone else seemed first to come up with new, ingenious ways of cranking the bullying up to max.

The misuse and deliberate, malicious false allegations made about colleagues was one way to get shot of someone they didn't like and for the longest time it worked.

The one good thing is at least we now have a system and all staff, students, new starters and volunteers / members of public can flag up what they might be concerned about and at least know it will be looked at a basic level.

On a final note, the feeling of smug satisfaction knocking at the door to carry out an unannounced inspection / investigation at the care home from which I was sacked a few years earlier by one particularly vile bastard owner / manager was immense.

Could see him eye me and give a "I know you from somewhere..." and then I introduced myself and a thousand pennies crashed all at once

I love your story!

I think in a lot of professions they resort to a bullying culture because they know they haven't really got a leg to stand on if what they're asking is unreasonable, and that's rife certainly in social care, because really a lot of the demands made of those on the floor is unreasonable, and you get one person questions that, it could lead to everyone else starting to and then losses of productivity and profitability. It's far better, from that pov to get shot of anyone who's asking uncomfortable questions in favour of those who just put up and shut up.
I've whistleblown in social care, funnily enough even though it led to real concequences for the perpetrator, it was me that got 'managed' out a little while later, they were a productive member of staff, even though their ways of doing that were actually illegal as well as against care standards, the higher ups weren't bothered about how the results were achieved, just that they were, because it meant that they could ignore the rest of us asking for stuff to do the job properly, that would cost money because "Well, X can cope....."

@Pinkbonbon

You would never be able to screen for certain cluster b PDs, and psychiatrists? Have you ever met one of them?

They’re renowned for being silent psychopaths.

@Pinkbonbon

Although I totally appreciate where you are coming from, these personalities cause so much havoc wherever they work, but due to the nature of their disorders it would be impossible to screen. They are high functioning, intelligent, manipulative and very charming. I don’t see how that could ever be truly enforced.

I think bullying goes on in lots of places...i didnt find any when I was in the civil service....but then went to FE college for 27 years to teach...full of nasty bullies....all friends with senior managers....the worst ones eventually got paid to leave so they just moved onto another college...one manager sold weed to staff so was untouchable....2 vile south afrcian women had fake qualifications but nothing done...both moved to better jobs after many good staff left due to their behaviour....

I was bullied at a really stressful time in my personal life, so with that bullying, I was a wreck.
This woman was renowned for it. It was joked that there should have been a revolving door on the office. Disgusting because it was far from funny.

I got moved, which I was over the moon about but she went on to continue bullying the people after me. Never ever got pulled up for it.

I worked with a horrible bullying band 7 in a clinic. I discovered she had basically bullied people with impunity for years. Complaints made, people never staying, yet nothing ever done.
She had stayed at the same hospital since training there, so over 40 years. I think they were afraid of her.

@DuchessMinnie

Oooh one day I will write a book about my experiences in NHS hospitals... I have worked in several as an employee of a private company contracted to the NHS. I have seen horrible bullying on all levels, have been on the receiving end of some really bad behaviour and have had some horrific meetings with NHS managers.

The main issues are:

1. Blame culture. Everything that goes wrong, someone must be blamed. The person who gets blamed might have had a million other things to do but the thing they missed will be called out. Anyone who thinks they might be even slightly in the frame for something will quickly work on building allies and creating a good story.

1. Too many people doing stuff they shouldn't, other people covering for them and then loyalties and alliances build up, obstructing people's ability to be fair.

1. Inefficiency in lots of departments. Accounts blocked because invoices aren't paid, HR processes take months, waste is high and it's hard to get things to move quickly.

1. Your band is everything and there is a reluctance to work outside of your band, whether that's upwards or downwards. "I need a band 3 to do this, it's too junior for me" or "I'm only band 6, why should I do something my band 8b boss should be doing". In the private sector we all have to muck in with whatever needs doing.

1. Lots of unqualified people in managers' jobs who have no management experience but have been there donkeys years and they need to find something for them to do. They don't know how to manage teams or get the best out of people so encourage tale telling and gossiping and often find a scapegoat or two to put in the firing line.

There are some truly amazing people in the NHS but there is no doubt that bullying behaviour is rife. I have been on the receiving end occasionally and I have laughed at the bullies. I have seen people horribly affected by this behaviour though and that is sad.

Sadly all this is too true

I've always said that those best suited to being managers never take the roles, the people who do go for them often are not suited or have the wrong reasons for wanting the power. It isn't just the NHS though, it can happen in any profession or career and we only need to look at government to see it all perpetuated there in the majority of people running our country

Huge organisation, almost impossible to get sacked. Too much paperwork to sack someone.