Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Work

Chat with other users about all things related to working life on our Work forum.

Flip

1 2 3

Original poster

Is this legal?

57 replies

surelynot16 · 08/09/2021 09:07

Sorry NC
So my partner has worked for a self employed man for around 4/5 years but has only been on his books as part time since April 2019
He's on his books as 16 hours pw however he works around 70/80 hr pw
He's works mon-fri 8am ish - 5/6pm ish
Nearly every Saturday & a few sundays.
He doesn't give him any holidays, takes a huff with him if he has a sick day & if he does take a week off the £147 that goes in his account for the ( 16hrs ) he's down for he makes him give him back.
Surely non of this is legal? I'm not convinced he's even down as 16 hours legally as he would still be entitled to holiday pay & sick pay. Something about this is all wrong. Anyone know the right way to tackle this please? TIA

OP posts:

Nightlystroll · 08/09/2021 10:20

They're both breaking the law by him being paid cash in hand. In my experience HMRC isn't a particularly compassionate govt dept, so I dont think your DPs anxiety will carry much weight.
The problem with you reporting his boss is that your husband is equally complicit in taking money that has not been declared. If he's being paid £147 for 16 hrs, then if he's working 80 hours he should be bringing in about £730. Which is about £38,000pa.
No wonder your DP has anxiety issues.

HeartsAndClubs · 08/09/2021 10:22

Your DP needs to look for a proper job with a proper employee and a proper contract.

There’s no point fighting this bloke over holiday, your DP shouldn’t be working for him in the first place. But I suspect that cash in hand work suits him quite well.

Personally I would stay out of it. The holiday is an issue, but your DP has knowingly been working cash in hand and has never questioned any of it while working 11 hour days.

It suits him to work in this setup, but the truth is you’re not going to get a good deal out of this other bloke so your DP needs to walk away or fight his own battles.

Comefromaway · 08/09/2021 10:22

He needs to be declaring everything.

And with regards to the payslips. Dd's new housemate has had problems as his mum was refused to be rent guarantor because she had no payslips only bank statements showing the money going into her account each month.

(They also refused me as most of my income is dividends and they ignored my dividend certificate but I'm sorting that with copies of my self assement but that's by the by.

Porridgealert · 08/09/2021 10:26

@Comefromaway

Don't worry too much about accepting the cash in hand though. As an employed person the onus is on the employer to make the deduction before handing over the cash so it will be them that are liable not your husband.

This might be correct but I'm pretty sure the employee is responsible to pay the tax owing. Unless maybe the employee can prove the employer deducted the tax but never paid it to HMRC. But as there are no payslips...

Comefromaway · 08/09/2021 10:28

No, the employer is definitely responsible.

Original poster

surelynot16 · 08/09/2021 10:30

@Comefromaway thank you.
I've just been looking & it seems you are correct. His boss should be declaring all his earnings & deductions of tax/NI & pension before paying dp
Without a contract it's 100% on the employer to put in writing his contracted hours, supply pay slips & make all deductions before paying his employee.
I've had a suspicion for a while that maybe his boss isn't declaring all his real earnings to HMRC & hence he won't put dp's real hours down on his books & how much his company is actually making yearly.

OP posts:

CorrBlimeyGG · 08/09/2021 10:31

Your partner can check on the Government Gateway how much of his pay is being declared and how much tax he is paying.

I've seen this situation many times before. The 'employer' will claim your partner is self employed and liable for his own tax affairs. This may be untrue, and HMRC can make a determination on this, but it's another obstacle to resolving it.

What does your partner want to happen? Not you, your partner. My advice would be to find a different employer, but what does he want?

MajorCarolDanvers · 08/09/2021 10:33

The best people to contact are ACAS

The number is 0300 123 1100 - its open 8am until 6pm Monday to Friday.

You don't have to give any personal details.

They will be able to advise your partner on his rights and the best way to tackle this situation.

CorrBlimeyGG · 08/09/2021 10:33

I've had a suspicion for a while that maybe his boss isn't declaring all his real earnings to HMRC

Your partner knows this is true though, doesn't he? He knows this is far from legitimate. I'd question how honest your partner is being with you.

HeartsAndClubs · 08/09/2021 10:35

OP what is your agenda here?

you say this is about holiday entitlement etc but let’s be honest, your DP is on to a good thing here. He gets cash in hand and doesn’t have to pay any tax or national insurance.

Paying a minimum amount in salaries is actually not uncommon for people who are self employed, because they offset certain costs as expenses.

Are you sure that your DP is actually employed by this man and isn’t in fact part of the business? Because the way you’re telling it it very much sounds to me as if he’s a partner in the business and is entirely on board with being paid a minimum wage for tax evasion purposes.

You can’t fight your DP’s battles for him OP. If he’s willingly working for this man and working all the hours then that’s his choice. He’s bloody stupid for doing it, but that’s his cross to bear.

Do you get to see any of this cash he says he’s bringing home?

Original poster

surelynot16 · 08/09/2021 10:35

@CorrBlimeyGG he wants to be on his books for his correct hours. His boss won't put him on for more than 16 pw & wont it be obvious to HMRC that he isn't self employed when his boss has him down for 16 hours & pays him through his bank?

OP posts:

Original poster

surelynot16 · 08/09/2021 10:38

@HeartsAndClubs He's on a good thing? Are you joking. He could be breaking the law although I doubt it as his boss refused to put him down as more hours. His pension will end up pennies & he's not allowed a day off ever! He's had 2 weeks in 4 years. In what world is he onto a good thing?

OP posts:

CorrBlimeyGG · 08/09/2021 10:39

His boss isn't going to put him on the books for his full hours. We can all see that.

The test for self employment is not that simple. People can have a blend of employed and self employed work with the same employer. It comes down to the facts of the individual situation.

I'll rephrase - realistically, what does your partner want?

Original poster

surelynot16 · 08/09/2021 10:43

@HeartsAndClubs And no I don't get any of his cash! I'm employed legally & pay my own rent and have my tax, national insurance & pension deductions made before my wage hits my bank account by my employer. I'm more than capable of standing on my own two feet thanks.
I can't fight his battles you're right there however I can help him see that he's worth a lot more then he's settling & putting up with.
Are you his bosses wife by any chance?

OP posts:

Feelingoktoday · 08/09/2021 10:47

The lack of a holiday is the least of you

Feelingoktoday · 08/09/2021 10:48

Problems. Your partner and his boss are acting illegally.

Lou98 · 08/09/2021 10:48

@surelynot16 he is willingly breaking the law though - there's no way he believed tax was being paid on 80 hours per week when he's bringing it all home.
I think the PP meant he's on to a good thing as he's taking home a load more money than he would be if it was properly taxed.

If he's not happy he needs to find a new job, working for a proper employer and paying his taxes. Reporting his employer is just going to leave your partner out of a job or best case scenario, only getting to work the 16 hours. His employer is not going to put him through the books for 70-80 hours. Could he survive on just the 16 hours without the extra?

Original poster

surelynot16 · 08/09/2021 10:51

@MajorCarolDanvers
@Comefromaway
Thank you both for your info
I think I'll call ACAS

OP posts:

Sittingonabench · 08/09/2021 10:52

Pretty sure you accrue holidays in overtime hours now too so he should either have a lot of time or money due. But without a contract or any proof of their working hours etc. Will be difficult to prove. Tbh it sounds like a big mess and definitely dodgy! If your DH is a tradesman he might be better looking for employment elsewhere. Joiners and bricklayers are usually in high demand but regardless if he has photos of his work I’m sure he’d get something decent.

Bluntness100 · 08/09/2021 10:53

Oh cmon. He’s been taking cash in hand no one will believe he thought his tax was being paid, he’s going to get fucked royally if and when he declares what he’s been up to, him ans the boss. Depending on what he’s being given cash in hand 30-40 percent of that should have went to the tax man.

HeartsAndClubs · 08/09/2021 10:55

He’s on a good thing because He’s not paying tax or national insurance but is pocketing a shitload of cash.

Yes, he’s breaking the law but he knows he’s breaking the law. Nobody is that uneducated.

And when I asked whether you saw any of it I was referring to whether he pays his way with all this money he’s essentially earning on the side.

I suspect you’re defensive because this is causing you frustration - the fact that your partner is complicit in breaking the law and he doesn’t care.

To be brutally honest, if he hasn’t stood up for himself by now and hasn’t looked for a proper job then he’s unlikely to ever do so, and reporting his boss is going to achieve absolutely nothing.

If it was me I would be looking to move on. I couldn’t stay with someone who had so little regard for the law that they were prepared to break it under their partner’s nose while claiming they didn’t know what they were doing.

Raise your standards OP.

HeartsAndClubs · 08/09/2021 10:58

And I couldn’t stay with someone who had so little regard for me that they would lie to my face and claim they were oh so oppressed by the nasty nasty man who was generous enough to give them a job Knowing that I would swallow their bullshit.

JamieNorthlife · 08/09/2021 11:17

[quote surelynot16]@MajorCarolDanvers
@Comefromaway
Thank you both for your info
I think I'll call ACAS [/quote]
ACAS for sure and as your primary point of contact. Be prepared for along wait on the phone but its worth it.
While waiting for ACAS, you can also contact your local Citizens Advice Bureaux, they offer an employment law advisory day.

Good luck!

minimecantrollerskate · 08/09/2021 14:40

If he hasn't been having full tax and NIC removed from his wages, then he would be a lot better off than somebody paying correctly, so that should help to cover any lost holiday pay.

However, he needs to get things onto a proper legal footing, or leave really, otherwise he is going along with it and he is losing out on auto enrolment pension contributions and the state pension contributions as well, so he does need to look at the bigger picture.

Definitely ring ACAS as I advised in my first post, they will be able to give advice.

Bluntness100 · 08/09/2021 17:02

He’s not going to call acas or anyone else, can’t believe folks are suggesting it 😂 dudes been evading his tax for years and working cash in hand, no way is he telling anyone.

And yeah op the downside is he doesn’t get holidays

Flip

1 2 3