Employer says we can't have second job?

[Randomondo]

I'm having a bit of a rollercoaster work wise lately with more legal queries than I've ever needed and wondered if anyone could help.
I just left a job I've been doing for a while because of new management.
I got a job at a supermarket which I do on 5 nights a week. I'd been applying to some other jobs and a couple of days after starting working for this supermarket I got offered another job for 12 hours per week (2 shifts) which I really want to do because it's a foot in the door for sales which I want to get back into (that was my job before) and the sales job has said they will give me my 2 shifts on suitable days, one is before my first night shift, one is on the last day, so I still get 2 days off, I get a nap between one shift and the next and I get my full time hours at the supermarket and my CV filler to keep me in sales.
However one of my workmates mentioned to the manager that I was doing this and he approached me today to say this isn't allowed and the company expects you don't work for anyone else. He said I have to remain flexible (the sales job said they'll work around me even if my shifts change) and I'm working too many hours in total.

Some people have advised me they can't legally stop me working another job but then a couple of people have said companies can insist on you not working anywhere else. So where am I legally?
I don't want to quit the supermarket job because I need a full time wage and they won't let me cut my hours now, but I really want to stay in sales as it's what I've done for years and it really helps me get another full time job in that area later on. Can this supermarket dictate whether I'm allowed to work a second job?

I have a meeting with my manager next week and I just want to go in with the knowledge I need.

What does it say in your contract?

You will need to see if there is a clause in your contract that prohibits this.
Most employers don’t like people having a second job because that means they are less available if they need overtime/shifts covering etc.
You could try calling Acas to see if they are legally allowed to prohibit you, or just try to discourage it?

I won't post exactly what is says in my contract as I know I can get in trouble for that but it's something like
We expect employees not to undertake contracts from companies considered to be rivals who could benefit from behind the scenes information our staff has, we expect employees not to take on work from other business that may affect flexibility or focus on their work with us.
We expect employees to represent our company in and out of work and therefore not to represent other companies that may conflict with our own values

It is a standard clause in many/most employment contracts to say that you must request permission from your employer to take on an additional job. Employers don't want people working for competitors, or exhausting themselves moonlighting, or phoning it in when they're at work because their mind is on their other job, or doing another company's work on their time.

You'll need to check your specific contract. I don't know how defensible those clauses are when it comes down to it. A smart employer doesn't invoke that clause lightly, and it's a bloody stupid and arguably cruel clause to put in a zero or minimal hours contract, but my guess is you might have a hard time fighting it if it's in your contract.

I assume the issue in part is the European Working Directive and needing X hours between shifts.

You def need to get your contract out. At my previous office job they retained the right to veto a second job that might be at cross purposes / reflect badly etc. so i was fine being a youth worker but imagine a barmaid in a pub on the estate where i conducted house visits would be no.

we expect employees not to take on work from other business that may affect flexibility i imagine thats the issue

If it's a zero hours contract then they cannot enforce those terms. Zero hours in theory works both ways and you don't have to accept work offered. (In practice declining often gets you penalised, whether or not that's lawful.)

But if you have contracted hours, even if it's way less than you usually actually work, that doesn't apply.

www.lawble.co.uk/zero-hour-contract-rights/#ftoc-heading-4

There isn’t anything in that contract wording which explicitly rules out a second job, so it’s worth a chat with the HR department/help desk at the supermarket

Another consideration is that you only get one personal tax allowance and your supermarket job will want you to keep it with them, I suspect

Because you will get taxed on all of your income from the second job, the sales employer will have to pay ee tax and NI on all your earnings, so bear that in mind (and that you’ll be taking home less than earning the same gross salary in your primary job)

It’s standard unless it’s in a totally unrelated field.

This is standard at lots of workplaces.

My last 2 jobs have said you can't have additional employment.

@SW1amp

That's what I was thinking. The wording isn't saying I can't have a second job, just as long as it's not a rival company, doesn't conflict with their values and doesn't affect my flexibility.
The flexibility issue is obviously the one I think they'll use but I'm not expected on short notice, I'm contracted to full time hours and I can be put on any hours but with a weeks notice, I've already assured them the sales job have agreed to work around my hours at the supermarket but my manager says I just can't have a second job.
I've talked to a friend who is involved with unions who said it could go eitherway if they look into the sales company and find any tiny thing that could be seen as a conflict, but she said it's unlikely they'd go that far.

they will give me my 2 shifts on suitable days, one is before my first night shift, one is on the last day, so I still get 2 days off, I get a nap between one shift and the next and I get my full time hours at the supermarket

What time would the day job finish and what time does the night job start? Is there anything in your contract about breaks between shifts?
I don’t think an employer would consider a ‘nap’ before a full night shift to be enough rest as you may not be able to give your job your full attention if tired.
I know there can be an issue with not having enough rest between shifts working for one major retailer (someone crashed on the way home & being tired due to shift pattern was a contributing factor), not sure about the requirements re rest between shifts when they are two different jobs though.

You’d be working full time nights, and at least the first one you’d have only had a “nap” between a days shift elsewhere, and your break at the end of your full week on nights would also be compromised?

They are entirely sensible not to allow it. Full time nights is hard as it is, but if you’d be working elsewhere and compromising your rest, such that you won’t be having the required 11 hours between shifts, albeit for another organisation, they are right to say no.

@GrrRightBackAtYou

One shift before my first night shift would start at 8am until 2pm, night shift starts 10pm until 6am. Second shift is after my last night shift which finishes at 6am and I'll starting sales job at 1pm until 7pm.

Now you know not to tell your work colleagues too much about your private life because someone snitched on you.

[quote Randomondo]@GrrRightBackAtYou

One shift before my first night shift would start at 8am until 2pm, night shift starts 10pm until 6am. Second shift is after my last night shift which finishes at 6am and I'll starting sales job at 1pm until 7pm.[/quote]
So you’ll just have come off 5 nights at 6 in the morning and at lunchtime you’ll be starting a 6 hour shift elsewhere?

That’s not a good idea, and is nowhere near the working time directive requirement for breaks. Your main employer is right to say no.

If you want to take on additional work, perhaps put in a flexible working request to reduce your hours.

I'd be tempted to just agree with them but then take the 2nd job and tell no-one. I'm not sure if they could find out via tax records though ie if they could work it out seeing as your tax code will change.

@SW1amp

There isn’t anything in that contract wording which explicitly rules out a second job, so it’s worth a chat with the HR department/help desk at the supermarket

Another consideration is that you only get one personal tax allowance and your supermarket job will want you to keep it with them, I suspect

Because you will get taxed on all of your income from the second job, the sales employer will have to pay ee tax and NI on all your earnings, so bear that in mind (and that you’ll be taking home less than earning the same gross salary in your primary job)

Why would the supermarket care what the tax code of the employee is?

Whether each employer pays NI isn't affected by how many jobs the employee has. Obvioulsy the OP might pay more NI but each employer pays the same regardless surely.

@AwaAnBileYerHeid

I'd be tempted to just agree with them but then take the 2nd job and tell no-one. I'm not sure if they could find out via tax records though ie if they could work it out seeing as your tax code will change.

I'm sure the tax code would change like you said but I think most places would just get on with it. Tax code changes are not uncommon to deal with. They probably wouldnt query it in normal times but now that it's a thing they are aware of maybe they will look out for it.

I would probably have just hid it from employer to begin with.

[quote Randomondo]@SW1amp

That's what I was thinking. The wording isn't saying I can't have a second job, just as long as it's not a rival company, doesn't conflict with their values and doesn't affect my flexibility.
The flexibility issue is obviously the one I think they'll use but I'm not expected on short notice, I'm contracted to full time hours and I can be put on any hours but with a weeks notice, I've already assured them the sales job have agreed to work around my hours at the supermarket but my manager says I just can't have a second job.
I've talked to a friend who is involved with unions who said it could go eitherway if they look into the sales company and find any tiny thing that could be seen as a conflict, but she said it's unlikely they'd go that far.[/quote]
The second sentence says “we expect employees not to take on work from other business that may effect flexibility and focus on their work for us. This exclusion doesn’t relate to a rival business, I think it is possible that they would want night shift workers to rest properly on their time off not take up another job. There could be legitimate concerns about lack of rest and potential falling asleep on the job.

To your friends that have said they cannot stop you “legally” working another job, I would say they are possibly mixing up contract law and statutory law. There is of course no law that says people cannot have two jobs, however if no second jobs is written into a contract then it would be a breach of contract to take one, so the employer could effectively prevent it through contract.

@SW1amp

There isn’t anything in that contract wording which explicitly rules out a second job, so it’s worth a chat with the HR department/help desk at the supermarket

Another consideration is that you only get one personal tax allowance and your supermarket job will want you to keep it with them, I suspect

Because you will get taxed on all of your income from the second job, the sales employer will have to pay ee tax and NI on all your earnings, so bear that in mind (and that you’ll be taking home less than earning the same gross salary in your primary job)

The tax comments are complete rubbish. Neither employer will be impacted by tax in any way.

You need to give hr a call, explain your second role doesn’t impact on flexibility or ability to do the job.

Don't agree to drop the second job be evasive. Agree wholeheartedly with the manager that you won't breach the terms of your employment contract. Then crack on but don't tell anyone any more.

We have to declare second jobs, and can't work for rivals (no surprise.) My role means I sometimes cover 24x7 on-call and might have out of hours maintenances overnight or on weekends, so I couldn't really do a second job and fit in stuff like sleep. But other roles are more strictly 9-5, or part-time hours, and you could fit in evening or weekend work.