48 hour per week rule and contracts that say 'and any other hours that the service demands'

[DerbyClose]

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/rights-at-work/basic-rights-and-contracts/if-youre-working-too-many-hours/

I'm thinking in terms particularly of contracts in education where the contract is as many hours as the job demands. Is the 48 hour rule just a nonsense?

It’s an average of 48 hours over a rolling reference period and so you can work more hours in one week if this is offset by a week of lower hours.

Very senior jobs are deemed to have control over their own hours. Or you can decide to opt out.

But quite honestly the massive holiday entitlement in education coupled with the rolling reference period means this sector is rarely caught anyway.

Education sector, not schools.

Holidays are the same as every other LA employee but working hours are excessive (a regular 60 hours) and we are told the contract is 'and all hours needed to meet the service needs' - so similar to teaching contracts.

I think most professional jobs require those sorts of hours.

But you don’t have to opt out of the working time regs. Given the reference period is long (17 weeks) most will stay within 48 hours though anyway.

It’s an average of over 48 hours over 17 weeks.

Lots of people have opted out of the limit anyway.

Thanks, 60 hours every week, deadlines to be met. TOIL dismissed.

I worked for 12 hours yesterday on top of my working week. To meet deadlines set, starting work at the latest 8.00am and finishing at 19.30. Some days I work from 6.00am as do many of the team. We can see by the 'red light' on Teams.

Not sure what we would do about it tho

Not a lot in all likelihood because your leave will bring down your average. Plus you’d have to show you are being made to work those hours. There could be a counter argument about efficiency.

But you’re heavily unionised and the main HE unions are known for being very aggressive and so I’d say speak to them.

Thanks.

I can prove the requests and deadlines on top of usual expected workload. Plenty of written evidence of requests and also of the u reasonable share of the workload that I have. Also admitted verbally at a full team meeting.

My leave hasn't been granted, we have worked through bank holidays, weekends and had minimal leave ( due to COVID) in the past but I'm owed leave that can't be taken as it is above the 'carry forward'.

I will consult the NAHT.

Thanks again.

It’s actually quite hard to hit the 48 hours because it’s averaged over 17 weeks. The minute you have a days leave (including BH) your average can fall quite quickly.

Add up your total working hours for the last 17 weeks, excluding leave, and divide by 17.

Remember also that breaks and lunch hours are knocked off

I think that many jobs would take these amount of hours if the employees would persistently allow it.

However in general I don't think many of us can be efficient for that many hours consistently over a long period. For your health, well being and effectiveness you need to give yourself a break and take some time.

That may mean a few days a week where you arrange something at 18:00 so you can't work later than that. And a few weekends where you work late on Friday but then do no work until Monday.

It does mean sometimes pushing back and resetting timescales. e.g. you've asked for A, B and C by Tuesday. I can only complete all 3 by Thursday or I can complete A & B by Tuesday and provide C by Thursday. Which approach would you prefer.

We're not machines and we can't work without some downtime. I know COVID has meant many of us ramped up and worked consistently long hours, but we've reached a point where most of us are exhausted and need to start planning some recovery or we wont cope with the ramp up in winter (NHS here)

Not sure what we would do about it tho

You can report it at www.tax.service.gov.uk/digital-forms/open/form/pay-and-work-rights-complaint/draft/start

My leave hasn't been granted, we have worked through bank holidays, weekends and had minimal leave ( due to COVID) in the past but I'm owed leave that can't be taken as it is above the 'carry forward'.

You are legally entitled to a minimum of 28 days holiday a year including bank holidays. If they aren't allowing you to take that it is a breach of working time regulations. If Coronavirus prevented you from using your statutory entitlement you can carry over up to 4 weeks into the next leave year regardless of what your employer's policy says.

Thanks all, some really interesting information here. We are only allowed to carry forward 10 days of unused leave.

After cramming in as much as possible ( we can't take term time) I was still owed 11 days. I can't even have the extra 'one' granted and have lost it.

I have also tried the 'I can meet the deadline for these reports, the other five won't be complete until...'. Honestly it doesn't work. The response is 'the deadline is...'.

My meeting this morning went something like this
LM ' have you had a good weekend?'
Me - no not really, I worked a full day from 7.30 on Saturday
LM ' I didn't want you to do that'
Me ' I have a deadline to meet and a full diary of meetings
LM 'oh'.

And 'haha' what is a lunchtime...if I'm working, virtually meetings are often put across lunch, if I'm out at meetings, then I'm driving between venues.

@DerbyClose stop and take a step back

You are drowning in over work and have allowed it to martyr you

No one can make you work all weekend, week after week. No one can insist that you work the hours you're currently working

No one can make you deliver unachievable deadlines

If you say 'sorry I cannot meet that deadline' what will they do to you? Sack you? That would be unfair dismissal as the deadline is unachievable and you explained that. Discipline you? That would still need to be done in a fair way and doing 60+ hour weeks is not fair etc.

Sorry I know I'm being tough but I think you need some tough encouragement. I hope you're ok

@GoldenBlue is right. It’s only when you don’t deliver or breakdown in the office that senior managers pay attention. Do something now before you end up with lasting impact to your health.

Say to LM I can’t do all 5 tasks, what is the priority of each task. If the go OH, I don’t know. Say I’ll use my judgement and some of them will miss the deadline. Then work your normal hours and don’t worry if a deadline is missed.

WRT holidays have you taken 28 days including BH? If not they are in breach of WTR.