Self employed roofer

[Dmaverick]

Hi, I wondering i anyone can help me out and advise/explain what I need to do for my son.

My lad (19yr) has been doing some work with a local roofer. mainly labouring but now the guy has said that he will teach him the trade. The guy is a 1 man band and my son was put in touch with him through a friend.
This initially was so my son is not just sat around the house, while he decided if he wanted to continue with studying. Anyway my lad would like to stay and learn to be a roofer.

my concerns/questions

He has been told he will be self employed (so we have now registered him for self assessment) although i don't think he really is, as he will work for the guy every week and he has set the pay.

I tried reading on hmrc/gov.uk and it said that my lad should be registered on the CIS (construction industry scheme) as a subcontractor so we have done that. The thing is the guy is not set up as a contractor so is not going to be taking any tax. Will this cause my son issues? or is this ok as long as we declare all his earnings? My son will probably only earn around £15k so he will only have to pay tax/ni on the 2.5k-3k.

i know some of you may say that the guy should have him set up as an employee but that's not how this guy wants to run it. I'm thinking its like the old cash in hand work that builders/labourers would do. My lad wants to give it a go.

I want to make sure my lad is set up correctly for tax purposes. please can anyone advise me.

Thanks in advance

Hopefully a tax accountant will come along and answer here

Based upon what you have said, I would be more than 99% confident that this is not self employment. The main person who is going to be in trouble if this is discovered is the “employer” who is firstly ignoring his employer responsibilities by pretending that the employees are self employed. And then as if that is not enough, is flouting tax law by not utilising CIS which they must if they were indeed utilising self employed contractors.

Your son can reduce any comeback on himself by paying tax as if he were self employed, but of course it is not technically correct, but is better than doing nothing.

I would urge him to try and find something legitimate though and in particular I would be concerned about what else this employer is ignoring, such as liability insurance.

Sounds like the guy was doing him a favour but isn’t really interested in doing it the proper way.

He doesn’t wasn’t to be an employer as then he will be faffing about paying tax, national insurance, pension, holiday pay, paternity leave rights, employers liability insurance etc, and have a duty of care to his employees, or the protection that being an employee offers. That’s why he’s not signing up to the approved scheme. He’s not that into it.

As pp have said, it does sound like he’s an employee, with none of the benefits this should provide.

It would probably be better if he could get employed with a proper company.

The bloke doesn't want all the raff of registering your son as an employer. If he is self employed himself he will then have to register as LTD company and the taxes and accounts change alot. You seem to have done the right thing as long as your son does a self assessment each year and declares all his earnings he should be fine (not sure if you need to do it until it's a complete year check Gov.co.uk). I think you should mabie look at roofing courses for your son as my brother was taught "the ropes" by a company but when he wanted to go it alone didn't have the correct certificates to so had to do some courses to gain the correct qualifications which wasn't as bad as he though.

This is how many tradesmen work. Might sound dodgy and it’s true that there are drawbacks (no paid holiday etc) but it is normal in that industry - he’s not necessarily trying to pull a fast one on your son.

DH ‘worked for’ another tradesman for the first two years of his career. Tradesman would get paid for the job and then pay DH. DH would then declare these earnings as what he’d made from self employed work and do his self assessment every year.

You’ll often find tradesman working for other tradesman with no contracts as such, they just declare what they get paid as self employed earnings.

It’s not ideal for the variety of reasons that PPs have said but ultimately he’ll be hard pressed to find a tradesman who will actually take him on as a registered ‘employee’. Just make sure your son protects himself with insurance and paying his tax. Hopefully it’ll only be for a few years anyway and then he’ll be off doing his own jobs!

The bloke doesn't want all the raff of registering your son as an employer. If he is self employed himself he will then have to register as LTD company and the taxes and accounts change alot.

This isn't true - you don't need to the Ltd to employ people or register for the CI scheme.

The idea is that people don't just slip through the net and get paid in cash etc.

Totally normal in the industry. But ask questions around training and safety. Dangerous business if not done safely and young lads used in poor conditions.

Thanks for the reply. I've been told by lots of people that this is how lots of tradesmen work. I've read though that hmrc don't like it if you work for 1 main person as self employed, I'm not sure how to account for the work he will be doing. If anyone can advise me on this. He will be working with the guy full time.
Do we for example put week ending 9th May 21, description roof repair, business name, amount received. Or instead of the guys business do we put the customer name? I don't want to cause the guy issues either. Thanks

If he's only working for one person he's virtually an employee by another means. Especially if tools are provided and he has no autonomy as to when & where he works etc?

I'd be concerned about Insurance and H&S on a roof more than bloody tax! I think is common amongst the trades - how do they get away with this attitude?

I'd be asking what formal training he's going to get given. Will he also be going to college? You really don't want him being taught by someone unless they can teach him safely and teach him good practices.