At risk/redundant - will employer flag this when providing external reference?

[MizZan]

I've been put at risk by my (large) employer, and am about to start the individual consultation period. At the same time, I've been lucky enough to get an offer from another firm, who I started talking with some time ago (prior to current role being put at risk). I would ideally like to accept the redundancy offer at my current firm, and also accept the new role from the new employer.

My question is, when the new firm calls my current employer to check references, as I know they will, will current employer tell them I'm at risk (or if things have progressed, that I've been made redundant)? Or are they not allowed to say this?

Just trying to get the timing right here - potential new employer is not aware of my situation, and while I am not doing anything wrong, I am worried it might raise doubts in their mind if they hear of it from current employer when checking a reference.

I am not sure if there's a standard practice on this (in which case I can ask current employer to follow), or any legal requirement for current employer not to disclose my situation? And would it change depending on whether I've already accepted a package/been confirmed as redundant, or if I'm still formally in the consultation period?

I also don't want my current employer to say 'oh well now we know you've got another role, no package for you' if I jump too early, which obviously would be flagged to them if someone calls for a reference. But I'm not sure they could actually do this, if I've been formally placed at risk (this is following a collective redundancy consultation too, it's a large scale redundancy situation). Do I need a redundancy agreement in writing from them before moving ahead with the new employer or do I really not have anything to worry about here?

Thanks for any input you can provide.

I also don't want my current employer to say 'oh well now we know you've got another role, no package for you' if I jump too early, which obviously would be flagged to them if someone calls for a reference. But I'm not sure they could actually do this, if I've been formally placed at risk (this is following a collective redundancy consultation too, it's a large scale redundancy situation). Do I need a redundancy agreement in writing from them before moving ahead with the new employer or do I really not have anything to worry about here?

Nice try. If you get another job you’re resigning and therefore not being made redundant and would lose the package.

I def took redundancy from one company and moved straight to another so it is possible. Was years ago and fairly nerve shredding, as didn’t tell either side. I thought nowadays references were more like “x has worked here from 2017 to 2020” but not sure!

From memory, until you have received your notice of termination from your current employer, you are not entitled to a redundancy payment if you choose to leave for a new job.

If once you have received notice you provide counter-notice to leave earlier for another job, you will receive the payment.

@Bouncycastle12

I def took redundancy from one company and moved straight to another so it is possible. Was years ago and fairly nerve shredding, as didn’t tell either side. I thought nowadays references were more like “x has worked here from 2017 to 2020” but not sure!

You were extremely lucky then.

It's pretty common for people at risk of redundancy to start applying for external jobs...being asked for a reference doesn't mean

1. You'll definitely be offered a job elsewhere (that you've been offered a job in principle is moot if they're still asking for a reference)
2. You'd definitely accept a job elsewhere

So I really wouldn't worry about that aspect.

However actually qualifying for a redundancy package isn't as straightforward. To qualify for a redundancy payment you need to be fully employed at the point of your termination notice...that means you haven't handed in notice yourself.

Your employer can then attach stipulations. My company has varied from "You must work your full notice period to qualify for redundancy" to "We want you off premises ASAP, please accept PILON" (Pay in Lieu of Notice).

In the first instance if you hand in notice before the end of the notice period you forfeit redundancy payments and support.

In the latter you can literally have your notice today, finish on Friday and start a new role on Monday because the company has finished with you.

I'd just play this by the book. If you're offered a job in writing that you're happy taking then just walk if you can turn your back on the redundancy package. If you can't then you'll just have to sit tight and work out your notice period.

Redundancy pay is meant to help people until they find a new job, it's not a bonus scheme to reward you for length of service...although I will admit it's sometimes too much to walk away from (mine would be almost a year's salary).

Thanks JustCallMeGriffin, that specific info is very helpful.

I don't know where these myths come from! Redundancy pay is what you are entitled to if your role at your employer is made redundant. Whether or not you've got another job to go to makes absolutely no difference to your entitlement. It's not compensation that diminishes according to how soon you get a new role or anything. Many people walk from one role straight into a other. And why not?!

If you want to leave earlier than your termination date to start a new job, you can give counter notice and your employer would have to justify why they need you to remain employed until the last day in order to get your redundancy payment. In most cases if a tribunal ended up deciding whether you should get the payment, you would.

Ridiculous to think someone should turn down a new job in order to get their redundancy pay, if it needs to start just before the end of their notice period (given the whole point is the work is going anyway...!) or that someone should lose it because they happen to have managed to secure a new role quickly.

Apart from anything else, you have no job security in a new role anyway, so if you were punished for getting a job quickly by losing a substantial redundancy payment and then your new employer dismissed you within a short time, you'd be left with nothing.

OP if your employer is unscrupulous, they may refuse to make your role redundant or to select you for redundancy if they think you've got another job to go to, and would wait for you to resign instead.

But most employers won't try and manipulate a process based on that type of information. It would be daft - new jobs fall through all the time, and it risks distorting a process they need to be able to demonstrate is fair in terms of others as well.

I don't know where these myths come from!

Not myths, experience of working for one of the largest private employers in Britain and surviving through round after round of restructures watching the various ways my colleagues had to deal with it. We are heavily unionised so they really do only follow the letter of the law (and rogue managers trying to circumnavigate end up in front of tribunals).

No company will pay redundancy money to someone who has handed in notice. You can't make someone redundant if they're already leaving! That they're leaving because their role might be made redundant is irrelevant up to the point where redundancy is confirmed.

Companies are also allowed to attached conditions as per the contract the employee signed. How this plays out depends on the employer. As mentioned even mine who currently seems to hate employees will offer PILON when they need people to leave ASAP. This is often how people leave one job and walk straight into another. Their old company has agreed PILON rather than working full contractual notice.

But if there's an operational need for someone to work their notice (e.g. role being offshored on 1st January so work needs to be covered until 31st December), no tribunal is going to find in favour of the exiting employee for their redundancy pay. At least 3000 of my former colleagues found themselves in this position. Quite a large number forfeited their redundancy in favour of a job offer seeing a confirmed job a better option than a small redundancy package. There's no way the company would have got away with this with Unison/GMB/Unite all watching the process like hawks if it wasn't legal.

There's tonnes of grey area in between but playing by the written rules i.e. the contract means that MizZan can get the best outcome possible. As official offers sometimes take their time they might be able to wait out what is said for redundancy including whether PILON is an option before accepting.

Well yes, if there is a genuine operational need. But a lot of the time there isn't, and there seems to be a myth floating about a lot of the time that if an employee wants to leave, they forfeit their redundancy pay regardless, which is just complete nonsense.

It is far too simplistic to say if someone hands in their notice before the day their employment terminates they automatically forfeit their redundancy pay.

I do agree that, pragmatically speaking, being cagey is sensible. But in the majority of cases it wouldn't be necessary and most ethical employers would be glad to support employees getting other jobs rather than seeking to penalise them as some seem to.

Thank you flowery, that's great detail to have. I don't want to share too much more info here given the situation. I don't think my employer is that unscrupulous, but you just never know. They are proposing PILON for everyone affected, which suits me fine and means there would definitely be no need to ask for an earlier finish.

But back to the original question - do you happen to know if they can/are allowed to disclose the reason for my departure, to someone calling for a reference, or to let the reference-requester know I'm at risk, if they call before things are finalised? Or would they just say, these are the dates of employment and this is/was X's title? There is no negative reason like performance issues or anything of that sort, it's just a straight redundancy as part of a large collective redundancy process. Thanks!