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Am I being unreasonable no 1003, but this is work related - advice PLEASE!

17 replies

WideWebWitch · 20/10/2004 18:44

Help - I really would appreciate some advice here.

Background: I'm an interim manager and have been been working on a contract basis since going back to work early this year. At my first contract I was paid an hourly rate and at the company I'm working for now I was paid an hourly rate to start with and then, after some negotiation (see here ) agreed to a contract direct with the company until some time next year. I am paid an annual salary pro rated and my contract states 35 hours per week (I know, not much but the whole co ethos seems to be 9am - 5pm, amazingly).

Over the next couple of months I will be doing quite a bit of UK travelling. Because of this I emailed my manager yesterday to ask what the deal was re payment for this. It's likely I'll be spending 2/3 days/week out of the office for the next 2 months, plus overnight prob 1 night/week. I'm not terribly happy about it but I do need to do it to get the job done so I have kind of accepted it. The reply I got was that no overtime was payable and that I may get time off in lieu but that my boss would 'appreciate some flexibility since my (ie. his) hours are 40)'. I don't give a toss what his contracted hours are, quite frankly, he's a) permanent b) senior to me! and c) MY contracted hours are 35.

I've been incensed today at the thought that I may be expected to just 'be flexible' and work longer hours as a result of being away, not to mention spending nights away from my family without being paid for it. I can arrange my hours while away to an extent to make sure I leave London by, say, 3pm to get me home for 6pm, which is normal time but there will very likely be occasions when I can't do this and arrive home, after 2 hours on the motorway, at 8pm. Of course, had I still been hourly I could have charged for all but the usual hour to work travelling time. I'm wondering whether I did the right thing going direct I suppose. They have made a cost saving as a result of this as they've paid a one off recruitment fee, rather than an hourly rate to an agency. My view is that I'm not permanent and they shouldn't expect a permanent person's flexibility - they should expect to pay me for my time, just as they would have had to had I carried on as I was.

I like and respect my boss and will be having a reasonable, calm conversation tomorrow, where I put my view and see what he says. I want him to confirm that even if I'm not paid, that time off in lieu will be forthcoming. Am I being unreasonable? I have worked out that I have been staying a bit late (only a bit but still) and coming in earlier than many for the month I've been employed direct and I will be bringing this up as an example of my current flexibility. All and any views welcome. TIA

OP posts:
Bellie · 20/10/2004 18:50

Ooh I sympathise with you. Is there any mention of extra hours etc in your contract? If there isn't you are entitled to ask for money or time in lieu, however IME most contracts have a wording such as "it may be necessary from time to time to undertake additional hours in order to complete the work required as xxx(job title)" if this is the case your boss probably in his rights to ask you without pay.

I would ensure that you at least get the confirmation of the time off in lieu offered in writing so there is no comeback.

Best of luck!

Bellie · 20/10/2004 18:51

sorry - BTW - I think that you have set out a very logical arguement to go in to see your boss tomorrow - just stay as calm as possible!

motherinferior · 20/10/2004 19:25

Quite honestly even if you were permanent I think you'd still be being messed about. Go for it.

princesspeahead · 20/10/2004 19:32

www, I think all your points are good. but i think the main point that you should make is that the rate they are paying you is the rate you agreed for a 35 hr, 9 - 5 job. If you had wanted or been willing to accept a job with higher hours, greater travel, and overnight stays, they would be paying you a higher overall rate, PLUS a per diem allowance for travel, plus overtime for overnights etc. You appreciate that he has a business to run and needs some flexibility, but equally he will appreciate that you also have a business to run (ie yourself on a freelance basis) and the flexibility he needs, which is over and above what you have been doing already, costs extra.

Good luck!

foxinsocks · 20/10/2004 19:50

Could you find out what their policy is for travel/overnights? I used to do a fair bit of UK travel and in most companies I worked for, I got an allowance for every night I was away (a small allowance on top of hotel bills etc.). I must say that I never received time off in lieu, only if I travelled abroad, even if I worked longer than my agreed contractual hours.

I guess as you are not filling in a timesheet anymore, it's not going to be obvious what extra hours you are doing. I also imagine, from his point of view, he will only be interested in the actual hours you are working, not the hours you have to travel back to be at home. I would approach it from the angle that you are willing to do the work, but given the fact that you will have to spend extra hours travelling, would it be possible to agree to have x hours off in lieu of that travelling time (therefore suggesting you're not peed off at working, just the travelling). And at the same time try and find out from someone else what their normal policy is just in case he is trying to shaft you money wise.

Tinker · 20/10/2004 20:04

www - have no useful suggestions (we woudln't get overtime for overnighters but could claim TOIL for excess travelling time) but good luck for tomorrow.

WideWebWitch · 20/10/2004 21:46

Thank you very much everyone. Yes, I think I'll tell them tomorrow that I won't charge them for the odd 10 minutes I've been doing per day but that anything over contracted hours when I'm travelling is chargeable. I'll let you know how I get on.

OP posts:
SofiaAmes · 20/10/2004 22:00

www, you could also point out that you would have to pay extra childcare costs for the nights you are away. And, if you do have a non-family member looking after the kids overnight, I would expect that they charge a premium for out of hours care.

hatter · 20/10/2004 23:46

fwiw (which may not be much) I work in the voluntary sector and we are entitled to claim an allowance for additional child care costs incurred in overnight travel. In practice we don't get toil unless the travel spans a w/e - technically we can claim overtime hourly but in practice no-once does it, despite the fact that when we travel it is entirely usual to virtually work a 16-hour day

tortoiseshell · 20/10/2004 23:50

Definitely think you ought to be paid extra for the overnight stays. If it's any help, I've been looking into doing some work, and there is recompense (inconvenience pay I think it's called) for any overnight stays, not least because it excludes you from doing any other paid work at that time.

Hope it goes well tomorrow!

Marina · 21/10/2004 10:10

All good points here WWW, just wanted to wish you luck for the meeting and feel, like everyone else, that you are not being unreasonable.
Personally, I'd expect some kind of financial recompense for the time away from home, rather than just TOIL.

Batters · 21/10/2004 11:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WideWebWitch · 21/10/2004 18:23

Well, I had the meeting and said words to the effect of "I am flexible atm, I do come in early and stay later sometimes and I don't expect to be paid for it (we are talking minutes here) but if I work longer hours over the next few months I do expect to be paid accordingly. I'm sure you agree this is reasonable" He agreed this was reasonable and said we would review after Ive been away next week, i.e. we'll look at how many hours we're talking about and work something out from that. I then followed up with an email saying that I therefore wouldn't be signing the contract they've given me (which says I have to do extra hours for no money) and that I expect them to re-issue this. So I think it's all worked out fine - I've certainly made my position clear. Thanks all for the advice and moral support. Knowing it's not just me that thinks I'm right makes soooo much difference! You're fab!

OP posts:
sis · 22/10/2004 10:22

well done www!

princesspeahead · 22/10/2004 10:31

go girrrrrrrl!

Marina · 22/10/2004 10:39

Excellent result www, well done (might need tips off you in the near future...)

serenequeen · 22/10/2004 21:57

well done!

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