Civil service job offer unsuitable for childcare.

[Asvan]

Hi

I just need some advice please. I'm looking to get back into work as my youngest starts school this September. I applied for an admin assistant role in the civil service and I got the job! I applied for this role as it was advertised as part time/flexible.

They called me on Friday to say the hours of work would be two full days and a half day. However, this isn't suitable for me as I have three kids under the age of 11. I have no help with childcare and my husband works away a lot so I need to be available for the kids.

In an ideal world I wouldn't mind working a few hours each day while the kids are at school as the job is only 18 hours a week. Is this something that I could negotiate? Also I would prefer to only work term time and maybe even be allowed to work from home some days. I feel like I'm asking for so much but I'd rather be honest from the beginning instead of wasting everyone's time.

Has anyone been in a similar position? And what's the best way to proceed. I have to let them know by Monday if I want to take the job. I dont want to come across as unflexible or unreasonable.

If there was nothing about what days then it's not unreasonable to assume a degree of flexibility over them. Otherwise you'd just put something like 18 hours to be worked as full days Monday and Tuesday and a half day Wednesday.

But she knows it's 2.5 days. So it's Mon-Wed, Mon-Fri or Tues-Thurs.
Whatever it is it's not 11-2 over five!

Which department is it OP?
It's just that the DWP recruits all new staff on the 'Employee Deal' contract which means you'd have to be available to work one late (either 6.30 or 8pm) in 5.
These new contracts also mean that whilst your manager can't ask you to increase your total weekly hours, they can change the actual days you work depending on business needs.
Many of my colleagues moved over to this contract (in exchange for a pay rise) and it's been a bit of a nightmare for quite a lot of them who have caring responsibilities or other jobs.

But its not unreasonable to want to know the days. If I was say studying on Monday and Tuesday I'd be looking for a job on the other days. If the role isn't flexible then you need to be upfront about the days. It wastes the applicants time and it wastes the employers time.

@SnuggyBuggy

But its not unreasonable to want to know the days. If I was say studying on Monday and Tuesday I'd be looking for a job on the other days. If the role isn't flexible then you need to be upfront about the days. It wastes the applicants time and it wastes the employers time.

On the other hand if you can't be flexible about when you work then you should make it known before interview so as not to waste their own and the employer's time.

Why? They're the one who want the vacancy filled,why shouldn't they make the effort to communicate what they actually want?

Both sides want something, the employer wants someone to do a job, the applicant wants a job. At the moment in most roles there are far more people looking for a job than jobs so of you can't do the hours they will withdraw the offer and take someone else so why waste your own time by not asking early about the hours if they have to be particular ones.

They’ll have a queue round the block for this type of job though. They’re holding all the cards.

Because people don't apply for jobs to do the employer a favour and have lives outside of work. Employers need to be more professioanal, a line on a job advert detailing the hours costs nothing.

It puts me off applying when it's not clear what the actual work pattern is. If it looks a good job I might enquire but otherwise I'd just apply for something else. It's a sign that they'll mess you around.

Sounds like you are in the fortunate position that you can be picky Snuggly that is rare in the current climate.

A lot of people looking for part time work are going to be in a position where the job is just "nice to have" otherwise they'd look for full time. They are hardly going to make the job be the center of their lives.

I understand what you are saying but it varies. I know when I was looking for part time I was doing an OU degree so I didn't want full time but it didn't matter much which hours it was. I know other people running their own craft type business who want a job to top up earnings and again the number of hours and rate of pay matters, the timing of them doesn't matter as much.

At the minute, there’s a lot of talented people Who will take anything.

Of course it varies, I just judge employers that can't be bothered to put important details on their adverts as bone idle. They tend to be employers who piss you about, I've worked somewhere where they made a habit of this and it was far from the only problem.

Snuggy, unless you know the OP personally you can't keep presuming she wasn't told the hours/days. It would of course be very odd had she not been. Which is why the most likely scenario unless she comes back to clarify is that she does know which days. She already knows the hours. Her OP just says she likes neither.
And it's not the kind of job where you can "ask your line manager Brenda if you can change your hours". Brenda won't get to decide either.

Obviously I don't know but I've seen it a lot as both a jobseeker and someone who worked where they kept doing it so know its not rare and employers just assume you are desperate to work for them.

If it were me I’d take the job, book the kids into breakfast and after school club for two days and then save my holidays for school holidays. In fact that’s exactly what I do as I’m a civil servant myself 😂 You’ll have unpaid parental leave for you can take to cover holidays too. They are also fair about giving special leave for emergencies when childcare arrangements break down.

For those saying there’s no harm in asking, there may well actually be a lot of harm in asking. If I was recruiting (which I do as part of my job) and someone came along with that list of requests I would have major alarm bells going off about how committed they are to the role and whether they will be phoning in every two minutes saying they can’t come because of the children being ill etc. You will come across as someone playing at dipping their toe into the world of work while continuing to prioritise the school run over all else. I wouldn’t honestly expect you to last two minutes and would regret offering to you if I’m honest. So think hard about the impression you want to give if there’s a chance you will want to take this role.

I would also think hard about how fortunate you have been to get offered this (well done by the way!) and how there will be candidates lined up for similar roles as the recession bites. I would jump at it and work put a childcare solution. It’s only two days a week of after school club. Once you’re in the door and doing well you might be in a much stronger position to request changes to your working pattern.

Agree with PPs that if you want the job it’d be good to change your mindset and willingness to seek childcare.

Would ask about any flexibility on the days/spread of hours. Would NOT ask about term time only working, at least before establishing yourself in the role.

Yeah unless the advert specifically said term time only I wouldn't assume anything. This work pattern could work better for holiday childcare as it would be less days.

Ring them and find out what days they need you to work, if you don’t know already? Personally I’d take it and organise childcare. Two and a half days off per week will give you time to catch up on everything else.

Once you’ve got your feet under the table you could suggest working school hours in term time and two and a half days in school holidays to reduce your childcare costs - if this would work with the needs of the job.

I definitely wouldn’t be asking for term time only when starting a job as with annual leave as well you’d barely be there and they’d have to find someone else to cover those weeks.

You may be entitled to tax free childcare which will help with the cost.

Hmm ... I worked as an Admin Assistant in HMRC ... it was flexible working, HR and my line managers were brilliant in explaining how I could manage child care , I was able to work my hours over 3-4 days as opposed to 2&1/2 as needed around my children. I clocked in 9.30 am and clocked off 3pm to drop & collect around school ... work load was target based, so we all had to close files we were working on by a set date, this gave us all the ability to prioritise the urgent stuff and manage the straight filing as and when. When under dpt pressure, I could go in on an adhock day to finish any group pile ups. This was a number of years ago but still have friends in the civil service who do flexible working both part time and full time around family life and child care ... some are in full time top positions & as long as they do their job they can work early or late ... civil service was on employer who I found were willing to be real about child care .

Though I understand things change over time ..but worth asking if it's flexible working hours. X

Speaking from someone who is recruiting for these hours at the moment I find that doing a couple of hours each day is such a pain for getting things done and you spend your time constantly handing over to other members of staff etc. Also in terms of job shares/covering office hours it's not practice.
If it is not a TTO job being advertised you are being massively unreasonable

Didn't you ask whet the hours would be when you had the interview? In most places you would have to work there for at least 6 months before you can submit a flexible working request re change of hours/days/term time etc. Seems unlikely though it's worth asking before you accept the position.

For those saying there’s no harm in asking, there may well actually be a lot of harm in asking. If I was recruiting (which I do as part of my job) and someone came along with that list of requests I would have major alarm bells going off about how committed they are to the role and whether they will be phoning in every two minutes saying they can’t come because of the children being ill etc. You will come across as someone playing at dipping their toe into the world of work while continuing to prioritise the school run over all else. I wouldn’t honestly expect you to last two minutes and would regret offering to you if I’m honest. So think hard about the impression you want to give if there’s a chance you will want to take this role.

This is such an unfortunate approach - and it is not the civil service approach to flexible work. Although there might be individual line managers who feel like this, it is not the ethos and it is most certainly contrary to HR policies. Its quite an outdated way to think about flexible working.

When a job is advertised the business area must advertise as flexible unless they have robust tested reasons that a role is not flexible. It is against policy to discuss working hours at interview. Op is right to wait until she has an offer before discussing this. Otherwise many line managers/recruiters will avoid those looking for any form of flexibility and this would be contract to the civil service approach.

As to your position OP, a number of factors....how much do you need the job? if its just desirable but not that fussed then of course ask away.If it is a very general admin role then they might not be up for much negotiation. If its admin support in a specialist area that you have useful experience in, eg, child protection and you have worked in that area for years previously, you have a bit more scope.

Managers will really vary, as well as the business need, eg, front line public office will be open certain hours. I am lucky that i started a job where a number of senior managers are mothers with flexible working patterns. I also know of a senior manager who works term time and has teenage kids.