Furloughed workers/bank holidays

[roking]

Does anyone have any more knowledge of furlough than I do that can help?

Basically I'm a manager within a company and when COVID hit we had to furlough 90% of our staff as the business totally stopped.

This left the remaining 10% of people doing absolutely everything and trying to ensure that we still had a business to go back to at the end of this. It's been very hard going for the ones still working as there were lots of thing left in complete limbo by the business just stopping and lots needed rearranging and sorted out. We are still battling daily to sort some of these things out. Majority of furloughed staff are still on furlough at the moment as the business hasn't yet recovered

One of my furloughed workers contacted me (and lots of other staff members) yesterday and said they believed they were entitled to have any bank holidays they missed while on furlough put back into their holiday allowance for them to use when they return. After some investigation, it appears they are right. But what I don't understand is why?

I've had some backlash from the staff that are still working because of the fuss this employee has caused about it. They working staff feel the furloughed staff have basically been getting paid to stay at home since March. They were off on these bank holidays so why do they get to take them again? But they (the people who have been working their backsides off to keep the company going this whole time) don't get them back. The thing is. I totally agree with them. It's not fair

I can't find anything that explains the reasoning behind this and when the August bank holiday passes it will amount to a full weeks extra holiday the furloughed staff will now have over the working staff. I personally think it should be the other way round! The working staff need, and deserve, a break. The furloughed staff have already been off since March!

My boss is ill so I can't ask him, the HR company we use for these things are closed and I have staff wanting answers. Does anyone know anything about furlough rules?

I have no idea but with written notice you can dictate when employees take their annual leave so there may be away around like that...

It may be a case of taking them off furlough a week before you want them back and then staying they need to use their leave that week.

Does seem so wrong! Where I work you weren't allowed to cancel leave if you were on furlough and our holiday allowance is x days plus bank holidays though.

Agree that it's massively unfair. I don't have any official advice but just hoping to bump your post.

I do know that the same applies if you are on mat leave and was a tasty little bonus when working out when to come back.

Agree that the option to unfurlough a week early then say it must be leave the last week sounds like a good option. With necessary changes in written company policy, written notice to employees etc.

Can you give discretionary EXTRA holidays to your 10% too as a separate but linked issue as the thank you that you acknowledge they deserve?

The official line on this is:

^Furloughed workers
Where a bank holiday falls inside a worker’s period of furlough and the worker would have usually worked the bank holiday, their furlough will be unaffected by the bank holiday.

However, if the worker would usually have had the bank holiday as annual leave, there are 2 options.

The bank holiday is taken as annual leave
If the employer and the worker agree that the bank holiday can be taken as annual leave while on furlough, the employer must pay the correct holiday pay for the worker. Employers may also require workers to take the bank holiday as annual leave with the correct notice periods.

The bank holiday is deferred
If the employer and the worker agree that the bank holiday will not be taken as annual leave at that time, the worker must still receive the day of annual leave that they would have received. This holiday can be deferred till a later date, but the worker should still receive their full holiday entitlement.^

From here: www.gov.uk/guidance/holiday-entitlement-and-pay-during-coronavirus-covid-19

If you've paid them for it then arguably they've de facto agreed to take the BH as normal?

Agree it's totally unfair for those who've worked. Does your company have any wish/leeway to give additional leave on recognition for the work they've done?

Thanks our holiday allowance is just x amount of days (varies on length of service) we are closed on all bank holidays.

I'm going to speak to my boss on Monday, because I do think it's very unfair on the staff that have been working. The furloughed staff haven't lost anything by not having these bank holidays. They would have been off if they had been working, and were off anyway because they were on furlough. Just seems very unfair on the working staff for the staff that have been off since March to now be handed an extra weeks holiday and the ones who have been working their arses off this whole time get nothing

I'll suggest bringing them off furlough a week early

Holiday days must be paid at 100% of the employee salary so if you didn't do that for the bank holiday days the employees are still entitled to those days. If there are 5 BH to take I would top up one week's salary to the 100% and give the required notice of what you're doing. You can still claim the 80% furlough element (or whatever it is that week) As Random said, you can dictate when holidays are taken.
I think the employees are massively shooting themselves in the foot however, doesn't look good in terms of loyalty etc

Thanks all. It's actually on the agenda of a meeting I have next week to sort out some sort of thank you for the staff that have been totally amazing at keeping things going throughout this whole time. They have been picking up jobs that they don't normally do and having to learn things as we went along. It hasn't been easy

This thing with the holidays has now just made me more determined than I already was to fight for something for them. They really do deserve it

Yes, the workers are correct. You need to give them the additional days as holiday. You can however mandate that they take holiday while they're on furlough. So you can make them take all accrued while they're on furlough, but you'll need to pay them at their full day rate while they're on holiday so you'll have to adjust payroll.

I think our HR are trying to sort out extra holiday for people who are working while people are on furlough to even things out.

Surely the employer just needs to pay them the additional salary on top of furlough for the bank holidays? With written agreement from employees that they will receive full pay for the bank holidays already passed.

Where I work staff were furloughed at 100% pay so they still got paid for their annual leave during furlough.

Our company paid the bank holidays at full rate.

They can have the holiday days while on furlough. You have to top them up to full pay for those days. Means everyone isn't taking holidays at the same time when they come back to work

@MrsJackRackham

Holiday days must be paid at 100% of the employee salary so if you didn't do that for the bank holiday days the employees are still entitled to those days. If there are 5 BH to take I would top up one week's salary to the 100% and give the required notice of what you're doing. You can still claim the 80% furlough element (or whatever it is that week) As Random said, you can dictate when holidays are taken. I think the employees are massively shooting themselves in the foot however, doesn't look good in terms of loyalty etc

Thanks. The working employees have had a lot to deal with. I totally get why they are upset about it. They deserve the extra weeks holiday. In my eyes it should be them that's getting it

With the furloughed staff it has been one particular woman, who isn't normally difficult, but since lockdown happened has been as absolute nightmare! She's been emailing us most weeks about "her rights" and what she feels could be getting done better. Most of it complete nonsense but each email is taking up precious time because we need to investigate all her claims Incase it turns out she's right and we need to do something about it. This thing with the bank holidays is just the latest in a long line of things. It turned out she was right about it

Over the course of furlough we've had to have 3 zoom calls with the furloughed staff for damage control due to her working them into a frenzy and trying to make out that we're doing everything wrong. She's been told to stop it but she told my boss she was entitled to voice her opinion and would continue to do so. Another colleague told me this woman hadn't been pleased that she was furloughed while someone she feels is inferior to her wasn't 🙄 I've just had enough of it all now

If she was on 80% pay then she’s right, bank holidays have to be paid at 100%.

I can see how it Seems really unfair to those working though.

Furlough hasn’t all been piss ups at the beach for most people. It comes with its own anxieties and stresses.

She's sounds an absolute nightmare, can't you just sack her..... I'm joking, if only things were that easy!

I really think an employee who has been furloughed is a massive cheeky fucker to be harping on about bank holidays, I just wouldn't have the front. The whole furlough scheme is very suck it and see, I've spent the past 4 months googling a lot of info. Payroll has taken over my life 😞

Furlough hasn’t all been piss ups at the beach for most people. It comes with its own anxieties and stresses.

Absolutely.

I think your best bet would be to top up their pay to 100% for a certain number of days to cover the BHs and possibly some additional AL. Then they have not missed out on pay for the BHs.

If you can find a way to give your working employees some time off, maybe when others return, then great. At my work people who were redeployed were given two days special leave before returning to their normal roles. Different circumstances, but you could do similar.

We have had to take "annual leave" during furlough and our pay altered to 100% for those days.
25% for April, May, June
25% to be taken for July, Aug, Sept.
Still currently furloughed so have had to submit my holiday dates till end of Sept.
Having dates submitted now means if we do get called back before October the company are already aware of when we are off on annual leave.
If they're not being taken off furlough for a while I'd be doing the same, request they take their annual leave now.
I'd take a bet that that woman intends to book a month off as soon as she is called for return

Couldn't you defer them coming back to work by making them take their bank holidays in one week then return to work? It would be less disruptive than employees taking time off in dribs and drabs. I think it's unfair that they want more time off but you should compensate the 10% with extra time off as a thank you for working throughout.

Oh and just thought, what is your AL entitlement? For some people, BHs make up the minimum. I think the minimum is 27 days, so some people get 20 days AL and 7 BH. If you normally offer in excess of this, they have less 'rights' as by 'losing' BHs, they still have the minimum amount of AL.

The furlough scheme is divisive but, taking emotions out if it, the furloughed employee is right about leave/ bank holidays.
These need to be paid at full pay so if they've only been receiving the 80% from the government you need to pay the extra 20% for those days to count as holiday entitlement, I would pay the extra 20% for any pro rota leave due until the end of their furlough period.
How you reward unfurloughed staff for working so hard is a separate issue.
Its hard because I can see resentment on both sides, those furloughed feel second best and if they are not on full pay may be struggling with the drop in income whislt those working feel annoyed they are working hard whilst furloughed colleagues have paid time off.
Hopefully everything will improve soon!

We had our bank holidays taken off us while we were furloughed and had to take a week "off" as well, to ensure we didn't go back and have all our holidays still to take. All legal and I thought was being encouraged.

It depends on the wording of the contract. If the contract states as an example:
25 days plus 8 bank holidays

Then this is sufficient to pay furloughed staff 100% pay for bank holidays as you have given them notice to take those days, it’s stated in the contract and is essentially agreement that those days will be holidays. The fact that the business doesn’t operate on those days supports this.

If the contract says for example:
33 days holiday

And there’s no specification around bank holidays the you have not given sufficient notice for those days to be holidays and therefore they should be able to take them at another time.

You can give any employer double the amount of notice of the leave and they are obliged to take it - so two days notice for one day leave, and this includes anyone on furlough.

Hope this helps!!

Thanks again. Seems like the best solution is to enforce the week of bank holidays being taken at the end of furlough.

I need to speak to my boss.

Our holidays start at 25 days + 5 bank holidays. 3 of the 25 days are kept back to be used for the company closedown over Christmas. So they have 22 days holiday to use throughout the year, plus the bank holidays (bank holidays aren't flexible, we are closed on all of them) and then we close down from 23rd Dec until 2nd Jan each year. You gain a days holiday per year up to 5 years service so some have more than others depending on how long they've been there

I do get that furlough hasn't been a bed of roses and a long holiday. One of my team was really struggling with mental health during it and I had to bring her back in a few weeks ago for the sake of her own sanity. One of the other guys who lives alone has been coming into the office most weeks just to have lunch a few days a week as he's older and doesn't have a family so has been very lonely.

The particular woman who is causing the trouble tho seems to have more of a issue with the fact she was furloughed while someone else from her department who has been there less time, and who difficult woman feels she is superior to, was kept. The woman that was kept is very flexible and can cover different roles. Difficult woman is not flexible at all and is very much the "that is not in my job description" type, so never has never learned any other jobs. Which is why the choice was made to furlough her and keep her colleague working. She is causing so many issues and I can see a divide forming between the furloughed staff and the ones still working which I'm trying so hard to fix

I think you can now do part time furlough???

In which case bring back difficult woman on part time to just do her work and perhaps let your other staff have some "mental health" time off paid...

Thanks. Yeah you could have people in part time from 1st July.

Problem is that there is currently no work there for difficult woman. She deals with specific invoicing which is normally very busy but that part of the business has totally stopped at the moment so there is nothing for her to invoice. The colleague from her department that she's annoyed about can do all all sorts of different invoicing (involving different systems) that difficult woman has always refused to learn as it wasn't her job. Colleague is currently doing all invoicing across the full company. Difficult woman wouldnt be able to do that as has had no training (her choice)

Difficult woman is very good at her job. She has been doing it for years but she basically just does the same thing over and over again from 9am - 5pm everyday, is very happy with that and doesn't want it change. My boss thinks she may have had a bit of a wake up call that, due to her inflexibility she is entirely replaceable, and she is now panicking. There are 3 others in the department that can do her job as well as other jobs, but she can only do the one thing and now that part stopped she has no job she can do so if it comes down to redundancies she is already at a disadvantage

I wouldn't be calling her a difficult woman. She just wants what she's entitled to and nothing more. It's a good job she is on the ball with what she's entitled to because as the manager it seems like you are not. As the manager you should know about bank holiday pay involving furlough workers, not for her to remind you, then you calling her out on here.