Sick leave then annual leave

[Newstart142]

Hi guys,
Just needed some advice. I'm currently signed off sick for 4 weeks. I also have 2 weeks annual leave booked which is towards the end of my sick note. From my 2 weeks annual leave, my first 3 days of annual leave would overlap with the last 3 days off sick. I know i would get these 3 days back into my holiday pot as I am off sick but my question is.... do i jus take the rest of my annual leave which is pre booked and return to work after my annual leave? Or will my employer make me return once my sick note has ended even tho i have annual leave booked?

Sorry for all the confusion if this doesn't make sense! Thanks for all your help x

If they want to cancel your annual leave they will need to give you notice of doing so, notice of at least the length of leave they want to cancel. Most employers avoid cancelling leave unless absolutely business critical though, so it would be surprising - are they in the habit of cancelling people's holiday? Is there something desperately urgent going on at work that you think they'll want you back for?

@flowery

If they want to cancel your annual leave they will need to give you notice of doing so, notice of at least the length of leave they want to cancel. Most employers avoid cancelling leave unless absolutely business critical though, so it would be surprising - are they in the habit of cancelling people's holiday? Is there something desperately urgent going on at work that you think they'll want you back for?

Hey @flowery thanks for your reply. No they dont usually cancel any holidays. I'm just worri3d they may be expecting me back at work when my sick note ends......although i have annual leave booked. It's back to back so worried i may not be able to take my annual leave x

But have you got any reason to think that? Your annual leave is presumably in the system all booked. Has anyone said anything to give you reason to think they might be expecting you in?

In my organisation you would need to confirm you're well at the end of your sick note if you want to be on annual leave rather than still showing as sick.

@flowery

But have you got any reason to think that? Your annual leave is presumably in the system all booked. Has anyone said anything to give you reason to think they might be expecting you in?

Yeah its all booked. And no, no reason at all. I guess I'm just stressing for nothing lol. Xx

Don't worry. If you are worried your manager might forget and expect you back in, just remind him/her just beforehand that you are on annual leave for the coming two weeks.

sick leave trumps annual leave so the three days that overlap will be sick leave, then the rest will be annual leave.

If you didn't have annual leave booked would you be well enough to go back? If not, obtain another sick note instead of using up valuable annual leave.

@GoldenBlue

In my organisation you would need to confirm you're well at the end of your sick note if you want to be on annual leave rather than still showing as sick.

Agree - check your policy and contract. Some employers don't allow you to go from sick leave to holiday (or holiday to sick leave) without first returning to the office. Mine doesn't, and it's a common policy in the public sector where I work. Nobody here can tell you what your employers policy or contact say.

”Some employers don't allow you to go from sick leave to holiday (or holiday to sick leave) without first returning to the office”

So if someone has a holiday booked to go to Spain, and the week before that they come down with something. They’re due to fly out on the Sunday but aren’t feeling better until the Saturday. Your employer would require them to cancel their flights so that they can come back to the office on the Monday, at which point they could (possibly) take the rest of their booked annual leave even though their holiday is now ruined?

Firstly I cannot see what the objective of such a policy is. Why do you need to physically see someone is better before allowing them to take their holiday?

Secondly it’s unlawful. An employer cannot simply cancel someone’s annual leave with no notice. And if the reason they did it was that the person was ill the previous week, that would risk discrimination claims, as disabled employees would be more likely to end up with cancelled holidays.

I can understand why illness immediately before or after a period of booked holiday might be subject to more stringent evidence of genuine incapacity for work, but there is no logic in cancelling holidays of genuinely ill people because you need to see them first.

"It is standard in the CS and has been for over 40 years."

Sorry, but I simply don't believe that. I think you must have misunderstood the policy or something.

I don't believe that in the Civil Service, anyone who is unfit for work, even with a disability-related condition, automatically has to cancel a family holiday booked for the following week, potentially incurring thousands of pounds of costs.

Flowery, it isn't. I worked in the Civil Service for more than 20 years. You had to report yourself as fit for work. In HMRC at least & IR before that, it was strongly suggested that this was done by phone.

”You had to report yourself as fit for work. In HMRC at least & IR before that, it was strongly suggested that this was done by phone.”

Well, I’m not sure why one needs to be fit for work in order to take annual leave, but leaving that aside, at least a requirement to ring in and confirm one’s fitness rather than having to cancel flights etc in order to show up in the office sounds a bit more realistic 😁

What would happen, I wonder, if someone either failed to confirm they are fit for work, or wanted to take their annual leave even if not fit for work? Do you know?

In my organisation you would need to confirm you're well at the end of your sick note if you want to be on annual leave rather than still showing as sick.

This

I am not clear where I ever said that someone must cancel their booked flights or holiday. In fact I am very sure I didn't. The policy as described is very common in the public sector. I've also known some other types of employers who have the same policy. It's designed to monitor people who might "accidentally" go on holiday rather earlier than their annual leave booking suggests. And the same policy applies to sick leave during / after holiday - this also raises red flags. Just because one person hasn't heard of the policy or thinks it wrong doesn't mean that they are correct. I can assure you, @flowery that it is perfectly legal and rather common. You just aren't aware of how widespread it is.

@Moondust001

I am not clear where I ever said that someone must cancel their booked flights or holiday. In fact I am very sure I didn't. The policy as described is very common in the public sector. I've also known some other types of employers who have the same policy. It's designed to monitor people who might "accidentally" go on holiday rather earlier than their annual leave booking suggests. And the same policy applies to sick leave during / after holiday - this also raises red flags. Just because one person hasn't heard of the policy or thinks it wrong doesn't mean that they are correct. I can assure you, *@flowery* that it is perfectly legal and rather common. You just aren't aware of how widespread it is.

2 July at 1830. You said that someone wouldn’t be allowed to go on annual leave without returning to the office. If they are ill one week and have a holiday booked the following week, they’d have to cancel the holiday as there would not be an opportunity to return to the office before their outbound flight.

An employer cannot lawfully cancel annual leave with no notice and cancelling holidays because of coincidental illness the prior week would disadvantage disabled employees.

If you are so certain this is lawful, perhaps you could explain how these employers get round the WTR and the Equality Act? Thanks.

When I worked in civil service during late 1970s I remember being off sick on Thursday/Friday before annual leave.
I obtained a doctor's certificate from doctor - despite not being off sick more than 3 days to prove I had been sick.
Cant remember if that was mandatory or advisory.

Since several people's have now confirmed that their employers - large public sector employers - have this policy, let's not get bogged down in one person saying that they can't have the policy! Perhaps, Flowery, you could just accept that young didn't know this, and leave it at that? Whether we happen to agree with our like the policy is irrelevant - these are large employers in the public sector and in sure that they have assured themselves of the lawfulness of their policies. And I said nothing about cancelling holiday. I said that they had to return to work - that is a status that can be achieved with a fit note or other doctors note, or by seeing their manager. As others have said. I'm sorry that you aren't aware of these policies, but really it does you no credit to tell people that they are wrong, too stupid to understand their employers policies, or misled. The policies exist. Hence the advice to the OP that this is an area where they need to assure themselves of what their employers policy is on this. It would be awful for someone to depend on advice from a forum that was wrong. I'm sure you'll agree.

”Since several people's have now confirmed that their employers - large public sector employers - have this policy,”

No they haven’t. One person has said they are not “allowed” to go from sick leave to annual leave. Several have said they have to confirm they are fit for work which could easily be achieved with a phone call text or email. You are I think the only person who says that someone has to physically return to the office before taking annual leave, which quite obviously means cancelling holidays.

Surely the most sensible thing to do if I am wrong is to link me to the policy in question? Out of curiosity I did some searching and none of the Civil Service policies I could find have any such requirement. A requirement to notify that they are well, not a requirement to return to work before their annual leave is allowed to start. I’d love to see the wording.

I’m intrigued by your faith that large public sectors always act lawfully, and to blindly accept that a policy which on the face of it breaches two separate pieces of legislation must be lawful without wondering how.

Having said that, I do agree it is unlikely that policies are so blatantly unlawful, which can only lead to the assumption that you are wrong, and all the others on this thread with policies requiring employees to simply confirm they are fit but not to cancel at least the first day of their holiday and return to work, are far more likely to be right. Seems much more plausible.

In my industry it's "allowed" but very frowned upon; a lot of people do it to get extended holidays. You can see the patterns of behaviour regarding absence in the HR system and we would hold someone to account if it happened more than once in a year.

Just a word of warning. My husband was off with a slipped disc for 7 weeks, the last week coincided with our son being born so he then had paternity and 4 weeks leave which was already booked. When he did return to work they refused to do a fazed return because he was coming back from leave not sick leave.... Bizzare because he injured his back and spends alot of time sat down driving or in meetings... Zero care for his health in my opinion

I agree with Flowery. Such a policy is unlawful. It is clear this alleged policy would be in breach of the Working Time Regulations and the Equality Act.

Even if public sector organisations had this policy (and the DWP certainly didn't when my wife worked there a few years ago) that would not make it lawful. An organisation being public sector does not guarantee that its policies are lawful. Employment Tribunals have found that public sector bodies have operated unlawful policies.