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Original poster

In process of being made redundant

24 replies

Remmy123 · 13/06/2020 09:36

Hi,

Wondered if anyone can help me.

After 13 years of good service, loyalty and hard work I am currently in the process process of being made redundant (currently at risk) . This is based on a point scoring system. Ultimately I am leaving because my division/my boss is quite. In my job you can be moved around to another division as there are 70 of us doing the same job, so this could have happened.

There are also some question marks how they reached one of my scores on performance. They asked 3 people for a score. One gave me a 10 as they told me the score, the other two people also scored, those two people I have never met so I feel its wrong they had any input at all. My final score was a 5 so the two people I never met must have scored me low. I want to challenge this.

If I cannot save my job I want to negotiate a higher package ( we have an enhanced package but it's not great) will I have a leg to stand on of I base this on my years of service and excellent track record/ experience etc? Good appraisals? No black marks agains my name all glowing feedback?

I am seeking legal advice next week but in the meantime any advice welcome. Leaving a job after this many years is so heartbreaking.

Many thanks

OP posts:
SoloMummy · 13/06/2020 10:03

Who were the other two staff members that rated you?
Why evidence was used as the basis?
What happened with your manager?

Original poster
Remmy123 · 13/06/2020 10:29

Other two were : HR (never met the HR lady until my consultation meeting re at risk redundancy)
Other one was department head - never mind even met him/ done any work with him

I raised both of these points in the meeting - they got very tongue tied and couldnt confirm for sure - they are coming back to me on that.

Thank you

OP posts:
Original poster
Remmy123 · 13/06/2020 10:30

They didn't ask my direct manager

OP posts:
MimosaFields · 13/06/2020 10:47

The system seems unfair. They are making a role redundant not a person. It just happens to be that the person in the that role is you.

Personal opinion of colleagues, or your length in the role should be irrelevant.

I'm sure your solicitor will see it this way as well

Original poster
Remmy123 · 13/06/2020 10:52

Thanks - everyone got marked on performance based on judgement ... turns out they asked two people I don't know

OP posts:
flowery · 13/06/2020 11:04

What about the others in the selection pool- were they all scored in the same way, including by people who didn’t know them?

VanGoghsDog · 13/06/2020 11:14

The system seems unfair. They are making a role redundant not a person. It just happens to be that the person in the that role is you.

People always seem to say this and it's not correct.

If you have five people in the same job and due to a downturn, etc, you now need three, you have to select the two to go. A points system is very common for this. And you most definitely ARE making the person redundant, you are actively choosing who to make redundant.

ACAS has a section on its website on redundancy selection OP, so see how closely they followed that. It's normal for HR to be involved but they would not normally rate you. When I am involved I tend to just make sure the managers doing the rating are not using unlawful discrimination and that they are applying the same criteria in the same way to everyone.

Original poster
Remmy123 · 13/06/2020 11:15

There were a few categories more but this is the one I am challenging.

Yes they asked the same people for everyone for scored feedback to : HR / Department Head / and operations manager ( I got the highest mark for that person)

Most people will have a solid working relationship with thier Department Head - I am unique - so wondering why they didn't just ask someone else. A higher score in this could save me.

I got a 5 but one person gave me a 10 so the score has dropped a lot.

OP posts:
Original poster
Remmy123 · 13/06/2020 11:18

Thanks @VanGoghsDog

If you asked someone to score someone, and they didn't actually know them - then that is unfair? Or is it just the way it is and I am just wasting my time? I just fail to see on what basis they can if I've never even been introduced to said person.

OP posts:
VanGoghsDog · 13/06/2020 11:25

If you asked someone to score someone, and they didn't actually know them - then that is unfair? Or is it just the way it is and I am just wasting my time? I just fail to see on what basis they can if I've never even been introduced to said person.

It's most definitely unfair. Scoring should be objective (well, as objective as possible, scoring by its nature is subjective) and the employer will need to justify how they did it and who was involved.

I would normally use the line manager and next line up, or another same level manager who works closely with that team. Always more than one person. But obviously they have to know the person's work etc. And HR really should not input an actual score.

notapizzaeater · 13/06/2020 11:28

Have you checked your house insurance ? If you've legal cover it may have a helpline ?

Original poster
Remmy123 · 13/06/2020 11:32

Thanks - didn't think it seemed fair but I don't want to embarrass myself by asking for clarity.

Yes it was quite embarsssing on the call when they said HR scored me and I told them it's this was the first time I'd even spoken to them!

How do I go about negotiating a package based on this flaw? Also being told we wouid get redundancy emails by a certain time but mine came 45 mins after COB. Longevity at the company etc - shall I get a solicitor to help?

OP posts:
StaffAssociationRepresentative · 13/06/2020 20:58

It depends upon how much a solicitor will charge compared to the enhance package you think you will receive. Some business enhanced packages are no longer as generous as they once were especially given the numbers being made redundant

MimosaFields · 14/06/2020 07:30

Sadly I've had to make plenty of people redundant during my working life, and I was made redundant myself once. My advise regarding " the role and not the person" was based on what the corporate solicitors advised me to say to my team members.

prh47bridge · 14/06/2020 09:43

Yes, it is the role that is being made redundant, not the individual. If you employ 10 bottle washers and no longer have any need for bottle washers they will all be made redundant. You can't make someone else redundant in order to keep one of the bottle washers.

However, if you still need 5 bottle washers you must decide which ones you will keep. You will therefore need to have some method for selecting which bottle washers will be made redundant. There is nothing wrong with using opinions of colleagues as to the employee's standard of work to decide which employees should be kept.

As VanGoghsDog says, the selection process should be as objective as possible but there is almost always some level of subjectivity.

VanGoghsDog · 14/06/2020 09:52

You can't make someone else redundant in order to keep one of the bottle washers.

Yes, you can. It's a concept called "bumping", and it can be used in some circumstances to change the person being made redundant.

My advise regarding " the role and not the person" was based on what the corporate solicitors advised me to say to my team members.

It's just spin though, isn't it? The role is redundant and a person is in it, therefore the person is made redundant. Or, the person is selected for redundancy.

flowery · 14/06/2020 09:57

@Remmy123

Thanks - didn't think it seemed fair but I don't want to embarrass myself by asking for clarity.

Yes it was quite embarsssing on the call when they said HR scored me and I told them it's this was the first time I'd even spoken to them!

How do I go about negotiating a package based on this flaw? Also being told we wouid get redundancy emails by a certain time but mine came 45 mins after COB. Longevity at the company etc - shall I get a solicitor to help?

Have you been given the right to appeal? If you have, do so on the basis you were scored by people who do not know you and have not been provided with the evidence supporting your scores.
dontdisturbmenow · 14/06/2020 11:09

HR could base in HR matters, sickness record, mandatory training undertaken on time, lateness etc... Department Head could have asked 6oyr manager.

You need to ask more about their scoring criteria.

Original poster
Remmy123 · 14/06/2020 13:31

Thanks all

Hmm now shall I wait until the appeal process (there definitely is one) to bring up the fact one of the scores were from two people people that do not even know me?

Or

Do I ask them to clarify to me before my next consultation meeting (basically that is confirming the redundancy) ??

I did ask them in the meeting to ask me who they asked exactly and why as they don't know me.. but they said they wouid take every thing I mentioned in the meeting into consideration NOT we will come back to you on points raised.

Also - redundancy emails going it after COB when we were specifically told it wouid be before .. so there was me thinking I was in the clear!!

Thanks to everyone x

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 14/06/2020 13:48

It's a concept called "bumping", and it can be used in some circumstances to change the person being made redundant

I was keeping it simple. Yes, bumping is allowed in some circumstances - indeed, in some circumstances failing to consider bumping may mean that the redundancy is actually unfair dismissal. It depends on the details of the situation. But if a case goes to tribunal the employer must show that the role was genuinely redundant. This is why, to go back to my example, if you are reducing the number of bottle washers, all 10 bottle washers must go into the selection pool (along with anyone else carrying out a similar role).

Yes, you can argue it is purely a semantic difference as, at the end of the day, an individual is made redundant. But it is a difference that matters if a case goes to tribunal.

Original poster
Remmy123 · 14/06/2020 13:58

So there are 70 of me - theoretically they couid have shifted me to another department, it is quite common we get moved around I have done so in the past.

My boss went too which also gave me a very low score.

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 14/06/2020 14:15

theoretically they could have shifted me to another department, it is quite common we get moved around I have done so in the past

In that case it may be unfair dismissal if they didn't put people in that department into the selection pool.

Original poster
Remmy123 · 14/06/2020 16:22

Thanks - we were all put in the selection pool but you get the lowest score on one of the criteria's if your boss isn't busy - so I can't use that angle, shame

OP posts:
Original poster
Remmy123 · 14/06/2020 16:32

@prh47bridge yes they said that this doesn't mean everyone else is safe until the process is complete

OP posts:
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