Friend asked to meeting to discuss complaints raised by a colleague who’s ‘after her job’ not allowed a representative present.

[Patchworkvest]

Hope you can help with this one please.
I’ve NC to protect ‘Isobel’

My friend ‘Isobel’ (aged 56) has received a letter inviting her to a meeting on Wednesday to discuss two complaints raised about her by a colleague.

The two complaints are outlined in the letter, along with the date the ‘alleged matters’ took place.

Isobel didn’t do complaint one (definitely a company matter regarding important paperwork and a ‘forged’ signature) but has admitted to complaint two (she gave a pain relief pill of hers to another colleague to take at work, a prescription pill rather than an aspirin for example)

The letter doesn’t say who has made the complaint but Isobel is sure it’s Rob (aged 29) as she remembers Rob refusing to sign a document recently and having to leave it for a manager to look into.

Also, Rob has been actively seeking to get promoted to a role the same as Isobel’s and Isobel feels sure that he’s trying to get her fired so that he can have her job.

The reason I pointed out the age difference is because Isobel has worked for the company for 25 years and her contract allows her higher hourly pay, more holidays better pension and generally a better deal than people like Rob, who came to the company 5 years ago on minimum wage, holidays etc.
And of course Isobel would be up shit creek to lose her job at 56.

Rob often says in earshot of Isobel that he could easily do a better job than her and that even with a pay rise on promotion would be much cheaper for the company than her.

He has also recently managed to get the ‘stand in’ position of Isobel’s job on her days off.

In light of the above I suggested to Isobel that she joins a union (why she’s not in one yet I don’t know) and has representation at the meeting.
She replied that the letter says she is not entitled to bring any other person to this meeting.

I’m not sure whether that’s fair or legal?

Any advice for Isobel? (besides that she’s an idiot for giving that pill!)

Yes for those asking, the fact that she works in a hospital even as an HCA/ancillary rather than a nurse or doctor does make the pill thing more serious, it's really important that anyone in an environment where there are controlled drugs in use is aware of how important it is that they aren't given out willy nilly, they are prescribed to a particular person for a reason and you mustn't be naive about giving a bottle/sachet of pills to someone who asks for them, even if that person has an (apparently) really good 'excuse'/story about why they need them. What if the next person who comes up to her in agony who 'forgot' their tramadol isn't a colleague but a patient, and or if someone comes up to her asking if she can just 'pass them over' something from the drugs cupboard or trolley? Drug addicts aren't always obvious to spot, they can appear very normal and functional but unfortunately be also very cunning to get their hands on strong narcotics so naivety/carelessness around medications is rightly taken very seriously by the NHS. However I still think if it was just this one issue (aside from the thing about falsifying paperwork which hopefully they will believe her about) they shouldn't view it as GM, possibly not even serious enough for a formal warning and she should absolutely ask them to interview the colleague who asked her for the pill - as PP have said you can't assume anything but the 'forgot my tramadol, could I just have one of yours' line is possibly fishy in itself, certainly the 'blame' in this situation is at least partially on the colleague even if the whole situation was innocent....

It will be massively in her favour that she admits the thing about the pill, showing she can/is open and honest, hopefully that will help them believe her about the paperwork too.

As it's NHS. they should definitely allow her to bring a work colleague into the meeting with her as support, I'm surprised the letter didn't say that as all standard NHS templates I've seen in a number of different hospitals do (maybe in her panic she misread it?). Lots of people understandably don't want to involve colleagues in this kind of thing though. A friend from outside work may be more tricky as people do try and sneak in a 'friend' who happens to be a hotshot employment barrister, but as I said above if she speaks to HR (there should be a name and contact details of the HR person dealing with the case on the letter) and pleads her case perhaps they will agree (on the proviso as above that the friend doesn't try and speak on her behalf).

Yes, it does seem rather convenient doesn’t it?
I think she probably was tricked.

I’ve told her now to focus just on the two complaints and answer them honestly and in as much detail as possible without bringing anyone else into it. Just to defend herself and accept it was wrong to give the pill to her colleague.

The other complaint is easily dealt with as she definitely didn’t forge anyone’s signature.

Thank you @maxelly

It’s not strictly NHS, it’s a company that provides services within the hospital iykwim?

She read the sentence to me it said something like ‘you are not entitled to bring anybody else into this meeting’ it was very clear.

She needs to work on her nerves or she won’t take adequate notes.

It’s funny, we originally thought the main problem would be the paperwork but as she didn’t do it then they can’t prove otherwise anyway.
It’s turned out to be her giving a colleague one of her personal prescription pills that she’s going to really have to defend her job over.

But yes I do see why it’s a bigger problem than we first thought now.
I will make sure she understands and probably show her this thread so she goes into the interview with a humble approach rather than being all angry about Rob.

Do advise her to try and relax as much as she can, she might find it useful to write down what she remembers about the pill incident so it's fresh in her mind. If this is just at investigatory stage she may not be entitled to take someone with her, she could look this up on the ACAS site but it might be nice for her to go with a friend even if they wait outside. She could also ask if the meeting is to be minuted or recorded. She needs to try and not get defensive, blame anyone else, just state the facts, only answer their questions and say sorry. She doesn't need to be angry at Rob or overthink who could be responsible for the complaints. With the paperwork thing, won't they need to prove that she forged a signature, was she at work the day it was signed.

No worries - just one final thing. Don't get too complacent about the 'they can't prove' it thing about the paperwork forgery. In employment/HR matters, things do not need to be 'proved' to the criminal standard in order for disciplinary action or even dismissal to be legal - this is a common misperception.

All that is needed is for the employer, on the balance of probabilities, to have reasonable belief in the alleged misconduct. They do not have to be sure beyond reasonable doubt like a criminal jury would be. This means that in some situations, one person's word against another even without concrete 'proof' can be enough to justify action being taken - the employer needs to take all the circumstances into account, including the previous record and conduct of both parties, any corroborating circumstances or evidence, consider whether either person would have a reason to be mistaken/misremembering or lie etc. Hopefully in your friend's case all of this will tip the scales towards her being believed but just so you are aware, simply sitting back and saying 'well you can't prove anything either way' is not a good line to take if you are accused of misconduct! Not that she would do that anyway I am sure

Great idea to get her to write it down.
I’ll talk it over with her a couple of times too just so she’s been over it and hopefully she’ll find it easier to speak in the interview.

I’ll offer to go along with her and wait outside.

I’m definitely going to make sure she knows that bringing others into it and trying to point the finger might actually reflect badly on her and it will come across much better if she takes ownership of what she did wrong and apologises.

The forged signature I’m pretty sure they can’t pin on her, she didn’t do it.
There are plenty of other people in that office who could have done it and I think she should ask if they’ve all been ‘accused’ too.
Because someone did it and it wasn’t her.

But I suppose that’s why it’s being investigated, maybe they’ll start asking others too when they realise they would have to actually prove she did it (when she didn’t so that’s impossible)

Let’s hope they’re not the types to see £ signs and try to construe the drug thing as GM to their own ends.

Oh @maxelly that changes everything!
I can’t believe they don’t have to actually prove it!

I might not even tell her that, she’s a mess already.

Would she have any reason to forge a signature. I would want to know why they even suspect her.

Sorry but yes - if you needed absolute, total proof it would be very difficult for employers to ever take any action about some things, take for instance a very different case to your friend, someone making a complaint of sexual or racial harassment in the workplace (sadly all too common). Most people are not stupid enough to harass someone where there are witnesses or CCTV around - and most will strenuously deny it if accused, so nearly all cases are one person's word against another, but the employer can in some circumstances take action anyway. If there was literally no evidence either way other than the complainant's story, the employer perhaps would not do anything for lack of proof, but if for instance the accused person has a string of previous similar complaints against them, or tells a confused/inconsistent story about what actually happened, or there was a witness who didn't see/hear the conversation but saw the complainant running away from the area in tears or something, that starts to give you evidence to form a belief that the complainant is telling the truth and you should discipline the accused person for harassment. If on the other hand the accused person can confidently say they were never in the area at the time stated, they were in a meeting elsewhere, or if it can be shown the complainant has a grudge against the accused or has made false complaints in the past, it might go the other way. Sometimes as an HR person in these cases I am pretty sure one or other person is telling the truth but a guess or feeling isn't enough, but then again nor is it enough to simply throw up my hands and say 'well we can't prove anything so case closed' - you have to conduct a full and reasonable investigation and then the employer has to make a decision either way on what to do based on that.

I am sure your friend will do everything she can to clear her name either way so maybe you don't need to explain all the technicialities to her if it's just upsetting! Your advice to her sounds spot on and the advice to write up a statement/account to help her remember is excellent too. Good luck

Tramadol is a controlled drug. The meeting will be a formal investigatory meeting and truthfully, I can't see that it will end at that however this does not mean she will lose her job and indeed with a 'clean record' highly unlikely. There will also have been an interview with the recipient of the Tramadol prior to this meeting. All she can do is be honest, nothing more than that.

Did the 2 alledged incidents happen on the same day. That would make me wonder if someone was trying to question her integrity and ability to do her job. She can write down questions she would like to ask.

I'm a first aider at work, and it's always been very clear I can't give any medication to anyone, whether prescription or over the counter. I can help people take their own prescription medicine (only had to do it with an asthma inhaler) and did give aspirin to someone on the instruction of the ambulance crew who were on their way.) I thought it was illegal to give prescription medicine to anyone other than the person for whom it is prescribed, even if someone is prescribed exactly the same thing at the same dose and just forgot to bring their meds in or something. So I would be worried about that (might not tell her I was worried about it, though.)

I agree with making notes before the meeting. Can she check back in her work diary to see what she was doing on the signature day, to show she was in meetings or something to show evidence of not being around anyway?

It's right that the employer is investigating - if I made a complaint, I would want it investigated, not just have it dismissed out of hand, so it's only fair it works both ways - and it's probably part of company procedure anyway. Employers are aware that sometimes, people do make malicious complaints - and that still needs investigation, because it indicates a problem, even if not the one being complained about.

Yes the two complaints are from the same day.

She was there and had access to the document so could have done it (but didn’t)
There were many staff members in and out of the office that day. Any one of them had the opportunity to forge the signature.

She understands that all complaints must be investigated and that that is the only fair way to deal with complaints.

Maybe leaving a document around for anyone to forge a signature on is also something they will look into. Who knows. It all sounds very idd. My little grey cells are working overtime and experience has taught me some people just live to deflect blame and shit stir.

If they offer her the document to look at she shouldn't touch it!

@HappyHammy yes I’ve said to her if it’s such an important document why can anyone else in the office access it.
I think they should definitely sort that out!

@CadburysTastesVileNow why shouldn’t she touch it?

It sounds like someone was watching her to catch her out - but even if that's true, unfortunately the tramadol thing is difficult to get round even if the document thing comes to nothing.

Tramadol is not that common a prescription - makes me wonder has your friend helped her colleague out before? How did the colleague know to ask her otherwise? Not often someone asks for painkillers and someone else whips out the tramadol. I definitely think that will be more troublesome than the document.

Hopefully a humble approach will go a long way though.

Also, even if it was Rob and he does have it in for her, that's kind of a moot point as the potentially more serious complaint is founded in truth.

Is it an especially important document that someone would have forged a signature. Why didnt the person who wrote it sign it. I would not discuss the document in the meeting other than to say she didnt sign it, why would she. I would be tempted to ask if the same person made 2 complaints and would ask to see the complaint but I am no expert in these situations. If it comes to nothing I would want a meeting with the person who complained but I dont know how that gets areanged.

You shouldn't get told who makes a complaint about you in the workplace. In reality, it's rarely difficult to work out, but people do sometimes jump to the wrong conclusion, especially if there's particular history.

EBearhug. Thanks for that info. What can you do if its been a false or malicious complaint and you want to raise a grievance.

Doesn't matter who made the complaint.

The purpose of the meeting to verify if it is true or not.

If they have evidence it should be discussed and she can offer her point of view.

If it is inaccurate in any way she has the chance to correct this.
As part is already true she knows there will be some action to come at a later date.

Big no no them telling her she cant have a representative its far from the case. You are allowed one representative whether they are from the union or just a work colleague in all formal meetings. I would tell you friend to get in touch with ACAS as most unions now have a rule that they want you to be with them at least 3 months before they can provide support which is very silly.

If they claim its an informal investigatory meeting can you take someone wuth you. It seems unfaur to be left on your own especially if there are several managers there. I would be really upset if a colleague made a complaint against me without it being discussed at the time. It must be awful getting a letter after the alledged incident but it sounds like the letter states what the complaint is.

They do not need to allow a rep or other.
It depends totally on their policy.