Furloughed workers

[Coquohvan]

Can an employer sack you after they furloughed you. A friend has been told he’s getting furloughed and asked to come in when they have jobs and not pay them till this is all over?

I don't understand what's actually happened?

The purpose of furlough is to keep staff on the books as government refunds 80% of salary up to £2.5k. They are not supposed to work during this time. Furlough is not losing a job.

There maybe cashflow issues as not sure anyone knows how quickly the payments will flow from the government. Have they received a letter? It should be documented rather than just a verbal discussion as that could lead to confusion.

Sorry and if they don’t they will be sacked. Is this legal, can’t find any further info online. Early days for all these new measures. They are quite worried young baby mum on mat leave.
Thanks for reading is anyone has info be most grateful.

asked to come in when they have jobs and not pay them till this is all over?

I'm not sure what you mean here?

Their was a meeting of staff yesterday, letters coming out soon.
They understand the 80% will be a few weeks, ok with that.
Just is they don’t come in after furloughed they are being told they’ll be sacked. And won’t be paid for coming in after furloughed till this is all over. Now the company will be paid for these jobs after furloughed but they are not going to pay the workers breaking the furloughed. Which my friends partner doesn’t want to do.

@playstation
Come in to do work if required and not get paid till this crisis is over, and still be on furloughed. If they refuse they will be sacked.

Come in to do work if required and not get paid till this crisis is over, and still be on furloughed. If they refuse they will be sacked.

So not furloughed at all?

Yes they are getting their letters soon been told by the boss directly. He still wants them to come in and work when work comes in. Please how can I make it clearer?

It's not that you are not being clear OP, it's the fact that if they are working they are not furloughed.

If they are still being paid then I would assume they would have to go in if work becomes available. But if your friend is on maternity leave then surely none of this applies to her?

So what you're saying is they've been sent home unpaid, and wont be paid on their usual payday, or at all until this virus thing is over, but they are being expected to come in and do work as and when work comes into the company? Is that right?

They are being furloughed soon. Owner has asked that once they are furloughed if work comes in he wants them to come back in work and not get paid for this addiTional work till this is over. If they don’t come in when furloughed he will sack them. This is what he is querying, can he sack him after put on furloughed, as work will be sporadic at best and pay will be less than furloughed pay of 80% of pay.

My friends partner is on mat leave. He is the one being furloughed soon.

What you're saying is confusing, as if they're being paid while furloughed why would they then be paid for working on top of that?

My (non-legal) understanding of the way it's meant to work is that the employee is furloughed but the employer continues paying them and then claims 80% of pay back from the government. If the employee is still being paid then it seems reasonable that they could be asked to work if work become available.

The way you're describing it is that the employee is being paid to be furloughed but if they work they won't be paid (or at least not until later). It doesn't seem to make sense.

If you are furloughed you cannot work. Think about it. The government aren't paying 80 percent of salary for a worker who has work to do.

I think your friend is confused. Furlough is an alternative to redundancy. It sounds like the business is doing the right thing to furlough people at the moment in the hope things take back off, as and when they are able to get work back they will require people to come in and complete this, in order to keep the business going and help get back to normal. It's likely they won't get the cash in until after the work is completed so payment won't be until the customer pays up, so is asking people to not expect pay straight away. This is what it sounds like reading between the lines of what you've said.

Lots of companies will be in the same boat, which is why the gov is also doing loans etc for businesses to help with the cash flow.

A furloughed worker will be paid by the government up to 80%, and will be paid via the employer as normal.

The employer can request staff come to work during this time should work become available however the money for that shift can not be then claimed from the government it has to be paid by the employer themselves. (employer sorts this)
Or in other words he can take them off furlough when there is work and then when there isn't furlough them again.

They absolutely won't get there furloughed amount of 80% and then paid on top of it for what they work. The furloughed pay of up to 80% is to protect staff not reward them for not having work.

In theory I'd said yes he can sack them if he has ended furlough and they don't come in without valid reason. As would be the case if furlough didn't happen at all.

If staff work more than 80% of their usual hours they will be paid for their hours if they work less than 80% they will get paid 80%.

A furloughed worker will be paid by the government up to 80%, and will be paid via the employer as normal.

*Yes he was told this

The employer can request staff come to work during this time should work become available however the money for that shift can not be then claimed from the government it has to be paid by the employer themselves. (employer sorts this)
*Employer saying they won’t pay this till after the current restrictions on working is lifted. And seems it’s intermittent hrs nothing like contracted hours

Or in other words he can take them off furlough when there is work and then when there isn't furlough them again.

*Can the employer mix furlough and worked hrs to equal 80% furlough pay

They absolutely won't get there furloughed amount of 80% and then paid on top of it for what they work. The furloughed pay of up to 80% is to protect staff not reward them for not having work.

*This is what the employer is proposing, though additional payment being paid when crisis is over

In theory I'd said yes he can sack them if he has ended furlough and they don't come in without valid reason. As would be the case if furlough didn't happen at all.

*So an employer can sack an employee even though the hrs he is asking them to come back of furlough for is less than the 80% amount from government

If staff work more than 80% of their usual hours they will be paid for their hours if they work less than 80% they will get paid 80%.

*As above he is refusing to pay this until after the crisis if at all.

This employer is not the easiest to deal with. If you question things too much he will just sack you making up some reason to do so. This couple are very worried about their financial position now. They would scrape by on 80%
It’s my friends daughter I am trying to get info for.

Thanks you @whatsthesmell. Are you trained in this?

I'm not trained my dh is a business owner and has got legal support to direct him in similar, as the dutiful wife I've been fairly involved to help dh. 😂

Pay timescales need to be paid in line with usual contract.

To be put on furlough staff must give permission and the must be notified when furlough is ending.

They must be told furlough has ended before going to into work. If work dries up again they must again be asked to give permission to be put on furlough for a further period. How many times an employer can do that was unclear when we were getting advice. But permission and communication to start & end furlough is a must.

Boss can't simply say come in today for a few hours then not be needed for another week or so or have people come in and out of the work place on an ad hoc basis.

You can't work on furlough only if it's ended.

This is what should happen. Of course it depends on the honesty of the employer. I'd suspect there will be a way to report employers who fraudulently claim furlough when staff are working.

Id also urge your friend to find out how regular they may be in work.
If boss has said "if work comes in you will need to come back" and it's expected/hoped that staff may be off for a few weeks enough works comes in for a week or two then might dry up for a few weeks then you'd expect 80% for those weeks off work, 100% pay for weeks worked (provided its usual hours) then back to 80%. On the basis of furlough work furlough. (but again further advice is needed to determine if there is restrictions on how many times staff can be furloughed. It's all new and not all answers are/where available)

We employment solicitors are all guessing a bit since we simply don't have any detail from the government yet. The question about going on and off furlough is coming up a lot. At the moment the answer is that we it is completely fine to furlough an employee and then bring them back to work. But doing that multiple times with the same employee may well be problematic and the risk is that the employer has then paid out salary that it cannot recoup from the government.

Aha! We've literally just received further information. An employee must be furloughed for a minimum of three weeks at a time.

So the employer wants to furlough the staff but if work comes up he wants them to attend the work.. Whilst continuing the furlough. They wont get paid for the work though till after furlough ends, or if at all. He has been told if he doesnt come in and work whilst on furlough, if requested, he will be sacked?

So the boss is wanting the government to pay his staffs 80% but also wants them to continue working if needed? Pretty sure that isnt legal, no.

We've been told similar.

We have been furloughed.

But they can basically switch us off and on.

But how can that be?!

Furlough leave is a form of partially paid leave (with conditions) to enable employers to avoid redundancy. You can be brought back into the workplace and you can also be asked to do training during the furlough period.

@HasaDigaEebowai fab so 3 weeks at a time? If you've just heard I expect we should hear it soon too.

So @Coquohvan looks like if employer furloughs their staff they can not work for at least 3 weeks but then it has to formally end before people can work again. He absolutely can't have staff being paid via the furlough grant while working that will would be fraud.

Yes I suspect that information will be officially be released soon. They've also clarified that you can be dismissed or made redundant whilst furloughed (which is not a surprise at all)