Rights as an employer of a nanny during this crisis

[LalaDipsey]

Hi, I need advice please.
I am a full-time teacher and single mum of 3 primary school aged children. Their childcare during term time includes employing a nanny who collects them from school three times a week and looks after them until I'm home. She works 12 hours a week and comes early twice a week to clean and do house jobs.
My hours are changing now on a shift basis for the foreseeable future so I am in to look after key workers children every 3 days out of 12, and I am wfh the rest of the time setting work and marking it.
In order to keep her I asked if she would change her hours to work 3 days in 12, which would also benefit the children as it means they wouldn't be at their school being looked after as key worker's children.
She has said she will only work her usual hours.
I don't need her to do her usual hours - I am here! I pay her with the help of tax credits which, I cannot continue to claim if she's not actually working. I want to keep her, but I can't pay her possibly until September her full wage for doing nothing!
What are her rights and my rights? I'm thinking if she needs to take dependants leave (unpaid) that's fine. I don't want to lie to tax credits. I'm happy for her to bring her children with her in these exceptional circumstances, but if she doesn't want to and won't change her hours at all and be remotely flexible what do I do?
Many thanks - hope all the information is here!

One crucial piece of information is whether you've employed her for over or under 2 years, as she gains a lot of employment rights at the 2 year point.

Also what does her contract say about changes in hours and compulsory lay-offs?

Essentially, unless her contract specifically allows you to enforce a temporary lay off or change in hours without her consent, and she won't agree to a change in hours or to go on unpaid leave voluntarily (it would be a lay off not parental leave, but in effect the same thing as you wouldn't be paying her), you are looking at a redundancy situation I'm afraid. If she has more than 2 years service she would be entitled to a reasonable consultation period, consideration of any alternatives to redundancy she can suggest, her notice period paid at her normal rate/hours regardless of if you need her to work this, any untaken holiday pay, plus statutory redundancy pay of 1 weeks pay per year of service (more if your contract provides for additional redundancy pay). If she has less than 2 years service she is pretty much just entitled to her notice period and any untaken holiday pay. You could informally offer to re-employ her at the point everything returns to normal but obviously you couldn't guarantee that.

But of course if she is a good nanny in general, it would be best to try and find some kind of alternative - perhaps if she realises what the alternative is she'd be more willing to work with you to find a compromise, perhaps along the lines of bringing her kids with her as you've already suggested on a couple of days and doing some chores/housework for you on the other day/hours? Or perhaps pay her whatever extra you can afford now to build up some extra days/babysitting hours again to be used when things are back to normal?

I can sympathise as it will be hard for her to lose her job and she presumably has her reasons for not wanting to change, but equally I can see your issue!

Thank you. Yes, she has about 2.5 years with us. She's absolutely fab - I just don't have her usual hours available at the moment; I do hope she will end up being flexible - it's such strange times!
Thank you so much for the advice. Her contract has 4 weeks built in so I am ok to give her 4 weeks notice if possible?
Her contract has built in 3 nights of babysitting per year to cover the nights she doesn't work late but I've never used all 3 in any case - I just don't go out! Thank you x

Her holiday is built into the contract so it's pro-rata'd that she's paid the same each month altho she only works term time. It says in the contract she is to take holiday in school holidays only. I have said ok to 2 holidays out of school holidays even though its cost me extra in having to pay for school club for the children but I've understood it's expensive for her to take her kids away in the holidays! Would the holiday left to take this year need paying? Technically she started on 1st Sept so does the accumulation of holiday start from then or 're-set' each tax year now? Thank you so much

These are very strange circumstances. I would give her a few days to think about it.

Absolutely. I think you're right. I'm just worried about being left with a salary to pay and no help to do so. However everything is changing so quickly it's so hard to know what to do that's right. Thank you, really valid point

If you are unable to reach a compromise, her job will be redundant and her holiday accrued to date will be due in addition to statutory redundancy.

But when discussing this formally, see out the alternative proposition and the confirmation that her old hours will be reinstated just as soon as yours are!!

Wishing for a easy solution for you.

Yes, you can just give her 4 weeks notice and make her redundant. But make sure you make it clear that she still needs to come in and do her hours until then and that she's not able to bring the children with her (unless she currently does). It will at least give you some uninterrupted time to do marking/setting and the children won't be at school for too long a period - rather than doing housework she can pick up the children earlier.

It's sad she won't be flexible, everyone needs to pull together at the moment and do as much as they possible can.

Thank you. She wont change her hours, she says. And won't bring her children with her. I can't have her come in until a 4 week notice period is over as we're in isolation until the day before the Easter holidays and, although I'll be going into school over Easter to look after key worker's children, she doesn't work holidays according to her contract. I really feel for all of us. In an ideal world I'd be able to afford to keep paying her through this crisis, but I won't get WTC/CTC to pay her when she's not working. How does the 80% the government is saying work? Any way I can claim that or is it for big employers? Thank you x

Well, she can't bring her children with her - that is a ridiculous suggestion and completely defeats the whole "stay at home" thing.

It is a shame she doesn't feel able to change her contracted hours, but you can't actually force her. So I guess all you can do is say "It is a shame you can't change your hours at the moment - unfortunately I no longer require you for your contracted hours. I will have to look into whether we can claim the Govts 80% wage so we can pay you for not working over this period, or whether we will be forced to give notice. I will do what I can for you. xxx"

She may have a change of heart - or she may just have to accept no longer being required.

Of course, this assumes the cost of continuing to pay her outweighs the hassle of having to find a new nanny when things go back to normal.

The 80% isn’t just for big employers no. You should be able to claim it same as anyone else. Speak to your accountant or whoever does your payroll.

Linking to a thread in the childcare section in case it might be useful. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/nanny_shares/3855946-New-Government-Support-Self-Isolating-and-Childcare-Vouchers

Don’t listen to Maxgelly, get some proper employment advice (do you have it via nanny tax?). You don’t need to consult one employee before you make them redundant. It’s open to you to make her redundant if you don’t need her for those hours anymore. Alternatively you could look at furloughing her (but gov have not provided full details yet) if you are keen to keep her. I would be a bit put off by her attitude but it’s hard to find good childcare

Hello! Well I think it will all work out. I finally got through to CTC and they will continue to pay CTC for 8 weeks so I can keep paying her for 8 weeks and we will reassess where we are then.
I would hope at that time we know when things will start to return to normal or she will come and do some bits here in some way.

Thank you so much for all your advice, I really appreciate it.

”Don’t listen to Maxgelly, get some proper employment advice (do you have it via nanny tax?). You don’t need to consult one employee before you make them redundant.”

Don’t listen to zsazsajuju who clearly doesn’t have a clue. You have to consult with an employee who may be made redundant whether it’s one employee or one hundred employees. Consultation might look different but it’s still required.

@flowery - what’s your expertise on the matter that you feel so confident to be so rude? Are you an employment lawyer? Please explain to us all the details of ops obligations to consult and why you think she is “entitled to a reasonable consultation period” and the other misinformation in maxgellys post.

I’m an HR consultant. I’ve been doing this for 21 years, so something as basic as required procedure to make someone redundant lawfully is something I’m pretty confident on. I know this stuff inside out.

But of course I could be making it up which is why I’ve helpfully linked the government website and ACAS for you as well.

That do you? Stop giving advice on something you clearly do not have adequate expertise on. Thanks.

Apologies I linked to ACAS etc on the other thread but I’m sure you can find them

OP please be advised to follow any advice offered by @flowery as far as I've seen her knowledge is excellent.

@flowery is an expert who very generously gives great advice on MN. You might owe her an apology @zsazsajuju.

Another endorsement for Flowery here.

@flowery often posts on the employment board, her advice is always excellent and clear. More importantly, it is accurate.

Hi folks, thank you for all your advice. Things are getting tighter financially as dc are now eating me out of house and home! If the schools don't go back, I'm not sure I can continue to afford her. CTC pay 70% (ish I think) but the 8 weeks is going to be up soon and if they don't keep paying what do I do?
I've investigated furloughing but because she just falls under the PAYE threshold she doesn't go thro a PAYE - I just pay her and make her payslips.
So, if I can't furlough does this mean I have to make her redundant?
Thank you flowery for your advice and the defending of you by other posters!