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Original poster

It doesn't rain but it pours - protected conversation

34 replies

LifeBeginsNow · 21/02/2020 14:56

I've been invited to have a protected conversation due to issues with the business and also I'm currently a burden. Has anyone got any tips or suggestions so I can protect myself and ensure a I receive a good deal?

Honestly right now I'm about ready to give up on everything.

OP posts:
maxelly · 21/02/2020 15:45

The best way to protect yourself is to get some proper professional informed advice - ideally from an employment lawyer, but trade union or ACAS failing that are good options. Check your house insurance to see if you have legal cover for employment disputes.

No-one on here can really tell you what to do but remember that a protected conversation/settlement negotiation is just that, a conversation, it doesn't bind you to anything. My main aim would be to find out what their best offer is in terms of money but also how they would happen you leaving (e.g. would you be required to work a notice period, what would be said to colleagues/clients if this is important to you) and also what reference they would give you.

If the offer is reasonable in the circumstances it is often best to take it as it avoids the stress and hassle of dismissal processes and then the expense and more stress of tribunal if you want to take it further, plus allows you to leave with some dignity and hopefully a reasonable reference. But obviously that depends on the exact circumstances and what they are offering! Don't feel pressured to make a decision on the spot esp if you haven't had a chance to take legal advice, so just treat first meeting as fact finding.

Can you take someone with you to the meeting for support? They probably won't be able to speak on your behalf but can take notes and generally provide emotional support.

Good luck!

maxelly · 21/02/2020 15:46

That should say 'handle you leaving' not happen!

Original poster
LifeBeginsNow · 21/02/2020 16:41

Thank you that's really helpful. I'll contact a solicitor as I'm not a member of a union.

I'm not meeting face to face as I'm not able to travel (hence the burden bit) but will try to find out as much info as possible when they call. I dont think I'll be returning to any work for some time after but I would like a positive reference.

Money is obviously going to be a massive concern now. I wonder if I would be entitled to my notice pay (3 months)? There's talk online about negotiating - does that mean I could ask for more?

OP posts:
StealthMama · 21/02/2020 16:49

Bars in mind for references no-one gives character reviews anymore, they simply confirm that you were employed in your job from x to y dates and that's it.

Usually you would your notice period plus any owed holidays and potentially any bonuses due soon, often you don't work your notice period.

But the grounds this conversation have come about are important as that derives who has the most negotiating grounds, I'd have you been on performance improvement plans, or redundancy, or long term sick etc

flashbac · 21/02/2020 16:52

Assuming you're in England...
They will likely discuss with you the payment of a settlement in return for you signing an agreement. This agreement won't be valid unless signed by an independent legal advisor which your employer should pay for. I suggest you ask how much your employer will be paying for the legal advice you must receive and find a suitable advisor so you're ready.

Rainbowshine · 21/02/2020 16:53

Also ask for outplacement support which is coaching and help with job searching.

Original poster
LifeBeginsNow · 21/02/2020 16:54

No performance review or mention of anything like that prior, but I did have time off for long term sick due to a major operation last year.

I'm not very good at asking for what I want in terms of money but I do have to think of my family. I literally wont be able to get another job as I cant attend interviews at the moment (I've been working from home since I went back after my operation).

I forgot about references and you're right, they don't really say much so it's not something to focus on.

OP posts:
Original poster
LifeBeginsNow · 21/02/2020 16:55

Flashbac should I hold off on sourcing a solicitor myself then?

OP posts:
TabbyStar · 21/02/2020 16:56

I negotiated a settlement once and I was advised to ask for six to nine months as a starting point, though of course all cases are different. How's long might it take you to find a new job if that's appropriate?

Original poster
LifeBeginsNow · 21/02/2020 16:58

Rainbowshine that will be useful in the future but I'm not sure when I'll be fit enough to work properly. My operation last year has led to complications and I'm pretty much housebound at the moment. I can't stand or walk for long so I'm not very functional as an employee (unless I'm required to use the laptop and phone all day).

OP posts:
Original poster
LifeBeginsNow · 21/02/2020 17:00

Hi Tabbystar I did wonder about those sort of numbers. Do you mind me asking what you were awarded? Did you have to go back and forth a few times?

OP posts:
Rainbowshine · 21/02/2020 17:07

In that case I would start with your full notice period (would be taxed and NI deductible) and three to six months ex gratia payment (first £30k is tax and NI free). They usually offer up to an amount for legal fees and you would find your own but you can look on the Law Society website to find an employment lawyer by postcode. Standard boring reference too. If you want to an agreed comms for colleagues and/or customers etc. Have you expired your sick pay? If not add in the balance of that too. You should be given a minimum of 10 working days to consider the offer. There’s a code of practice they need to follow published by ACAS.

TabbyStar · 21/02/2020 17:18

I think I got about four months in the end, it was a charity so I didn't press for more, although I wish I had because one of the reasons I wanted to leave was that they were underpaying me. I can't remember whether I went backwards and forwards, but that is quite normal. I think I got £250 for legal costs, about 8 years ago.

Rainbowshine · 21/02/2020 19:03

We offer up to £500 for legal, obviously lawyers have increased their fees above inflation @TabbyStar! I think @LifeBeginsNow you’re in a stronger position than you think. They want to bypass formal process and remove risk of legal claims so make them work for it!

Original poster
LifeBeginsNow · 21/02/2020 19:29

Yes I think you are right Rainbow. I seem to get no luck and when it goes wrong it's pretty spectacular but maybe I can come out of this fairly well.

My saving grace is that I spent last year frantically paying off debt. I haven't quite finished sadly but I think by being a little frugal, I can sort it and live off one wage for a bit.

OP posts:
Rainbowshine · 21/02/2020 20:28

@LifeBeginsNow here’s a link to the ACAS code I mentioned before.

www.acas.org.uk/code-of-practice-settlement-agreements

Poppyfr33 · 22/02/2020 10:18

Look at your home insurance to see if you have legal cover, might be able to access free advice.

Original poster
LifeBeginsNow · 22/02/2020 17:01

I've just read through the acas code of practice. I'm thinking maybe it's the discrimination based on disability that is of concern to work and why we are going through this process.

OP posts:
EBearhug · 23/02/2020 11:09

References will sometimes include reason for leaving, so it's worth making sure it won't say something like "dismissed due to capability."

Remember that negotiations will go downwards, so start with a figure higher than you expect and know what you consider to be the lowest you would consider. So if you wouldn't go for less than 6 months pay, start by going for 1 year, and hope they offer 9 months.

But definitely get legal advice.

OnTheEdgeOfTheNight · 23/02/2020 11:22

I'd advise that you say as little as possible during this conversation. Don't feel awkward during silences. Let them fill the gaps. If they ask questions you're uncomfortable with, just have a few pre-prepared vague responses like "I'm not sure I'd agree with that", "I'd have to think about that" etc.

The earlier advice about how these legal agreements work is correct- you will need legal advice and your employer should help you in your future job search, whether they means career coaching or not working your notice period etc. You could start looking for an employment solicitor now, try to get a feel for one you're comfortable with (they may give you a few minutes on the phone with general advice). Then you will be ready to proceed if you need to.

Original poster
LifeBeginsNow · 23/02/2020 11:34

I've been told it's as a result of a downturn in sales (which I can see) but I believe I am the obvious choice due to my illness.

That's a good idea about not filling it the silences. It's all new to me so I will try to listen to what they suggest and go away to think about things. I cant rush this as it's going to have a massive impact on my family for quite a long time (unless the payout is decent).

OP posts:
OnTheEdgeOfTheNight · 23/02/2020 11:53

It may seem rude to sit in silence, or to not answer their questions, but remember that they have done this before and they're going into the meeting /telephone call with all the knowledge. You will be on the back foot, so don't try to be polite.

"When do you think you'll be back in the office?"
"I can't answer that today"
"How do you feel...."
"I would have to get back to you about that"
Ultimately, they are only going through this process because they have to. So try not to feel like a burden, if you're not well enough to do the full job then that's just how it is. If you really want to return then you can look into e.g. requesting an occupational therapist's report. Think about whether they've done all they can already.

HermanHermit · 23/02/2020 12:00

Sounds like you’re actually in the driving seat of this one and they’d have to make a good offer to avoide potential for discrimination action. Is @hermioneweasley around? She works for employers but has excellent advice usually

OnTheEdgeOfTheNight · 23/02/2020 12:08

Well I'm not a lawyer, but I do think there's some ambiguity - this could be a capability issue about your ability to do your job, or redundancy due to falling sales. Presumably you're an easy target as you say, but both scenarios require your employer to follow specific processes.

flowery · 23/02/2020 12:24

Do not ask for anything. Listen. Let them make the offer and ensure they give you a draft settlement agreement or at least a
Without Prejudice letter setting out their offer.

Ensure they are paying for a solicitor, then go and find one. He/she will be able to advise you as to whether the offer is realistic (probably not to start with) and explain what claims you may have and the likelihood of success.

Key point to consider really as a starting point is how long it would take them to dismiss you lawfully. The fact you say this : “ I'm not sure when I'll be fit enough to work properly. My operation last year has led to complications and I'm pretty much housebound at the moment. I can't stand or walk for long so I'm not very functional as an employee” makes me think it wouldn’t be overly tricky to dismiss you lawfully but might take a while and be a hassle.

It’s a commercial agreement, they’ll be doing it to save time, hassle and legal risk. The settlement figure is what it is worth to them to do that, which will depend on their appetite for going through a process, the costs of doing so, the strength of any claim you might have, how much it would cost them to defend it, and how likely they think you are to actually bring a claim.