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Original poster

Bosses being sneaky about redundancy

33 replies

scaredyscared1114 · 13/01/2020 16:19

My bosses have decided to shut their business in March. I have been told the date to finish my employment but no mention of redundancy - they are very naive about employment law. I gathered all the info they need to make me and my colleague redundant and send them the forms.

Today my boss called and said she has checked the security system and added up all the minutes I have been late over the 5 years I have worked for them - says its almost 8h in total and they are appalled that I have been "lying" to them about my hours, I've literally been late by 1-2 minutes in most instances and I have also been early by over 30 minutes for almost 2 years when I was lift sharing.
I apologised, of course. She seems to think I owe her some money or some labour back because of this... I said I'd happily give her the 8h pay back but she now says she wants me to continue working past my redundancy for free to help them close down the business (tidying etc) I feel really tense, like I would prefer to just get out of this job now. I'm tempted to hand in my notice but I would miss out on my redundancy pay.

Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts.

OP posts:

rslsys · 13/01/2020 16:24

Calculate your early arrivals total and tell her you want overtime for this!

melissasummerfield · 13/01/2020 16:27

They cannot take action against you for lateness from 5 years ago, it needs to be timely and reasonable.

Asking you to work for free is obviously completely unacceptable!

Do no resign, this is what they are trying to achieve

Original poster

scaredyscared1114 · 13/01/2020 16:30

The whole thing is just making me so tearful and stressed. I already feel like I'm having a nervous breakdown, my husband has just got a job after 2 months out of work after HIS redundancy, we've just moved house... pulling my hair out.

OP posts:

Morgan12 · 13/01/2020 16:35

They are trying to get you to leave I reckon.

I'd definitely calculate my early arrivals.

Bluntness100 · 13/01/2020 16:36

Don't let it stress you.

Send her this

And say, obviously I've been early too, but I'm more than happy to spend an extra day and help you out. However it will have to be confided to one day.

Then pull a sickie, or if you're worried about the money just do the day.

Either way I think she's trying to do you over and I would be surprised if she intends to pay redundancy,

Ticklemeelmo · 13/01/2020 16:36

Ring ACAS tomorrow and get advice from them.

Try to get everything in emails or written format if you can, and whatever you do don't resign- sounds like they want to try and weasel out of paying your redundancy by making your life hard there and hoping you'll resign.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 13/01/2020 16:42

They are either being super childish (because you've held them to account about redundancy and so they want to get back at you) or they are being super sneaky and trying to get you to resign so they don't have to pay you redundancy. Obviously, don't do this.

Call ACAS first thing in the morning. Make sure you know your rights, to the letter. Also find out what you can do if they don't uphold your rights (for eg I know you can take them to a tribunal but that will likely cost you).

As for the 8 hours - I'm sure you can offset that by the times you've been early...

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 13/01/2020 16:42

And yes - I'd email your boss tonight and ask her to confirm her conversation today in writing, with dates and times.

SD1978 · 13/01/2020 16:44

Ask for a notification if all the times you e been early on the last 5 years......I doubt she's been through or even has 5 years of footage.

Original poster

scaredyscared1114 · 13/01/2020 16:45

They are suddenly digging up lateness and things from years ago, makes me think they are going to try and fire me so they don't have to pay my redundancy?

OP posts:

littleduckeggblue · 13/01/2020 16:46

Ask your boss to put it all in writing for you. She'll soon shit herself

Original poster

scaredyscared1114 · 13/01/2020 16:47

Sorry, just seen thats what everyone has said! I'm going to ask about early times. I know from 2016-2018 I was 30 mins early every day!

OP posts:

IntermittentParps · 13/01/2020 16:50

I'm going to ask about early times. I know from 2016-2018 I was 30 mins early every day!
Definitely do this. Ask for it to be offset against the times you were late.
She'll likely back down.

KatherineJaneway · 13/01/2020 16:53

No way have they kept 5 years of footage, she's pulling a fast one.

justasking111 · 13/01/2020 16:57

ACAS tomorrow. As an employer I have used them for advice in the past. She is taking the mickey, unless you were warned in a timely manner when it happened not a leg to stand on. I worked for the council my boss an old biddy had secret files on everyone in the department the union had a good laugh over that.

Igmum · 13/01/2020 17:06

ACAS are great. Can you join a union? So sorry you're going through this OP and yes, they are definitely well out of order. I think you might be charitable calling it naive 💐💐

TorysSuckRevokeArticle50 · 13/01/2020 17:08

Start at the beginning with your staff handbook/policies.

You're looking for your disciplinary/performance management process/policy.

You have been there more than 2 years, they need to follow that process to even take you to a stage 1 disciplinary meeting about this, and usually there is a requirement for timely address of issues. No one can argue that 2 mins lateness being addressed 5 years later is timely.

It's not gross misconduct, so they have to go through the whole process and if they tried to fire you based on this if they can't evidence having addressed it with you previously, they would be crucified at an employee tribunal.

Original poster

scaredyscared1114 · 13/01/2020 17:09

Thanks everyone.

It's not footage, apparently it's alarm deactivation times.

OP posts:

Mummyoflittledragon · 13/01/2020 17:26

This cannot be legal. The company needed to bring this to your attention before now. If anything is mentioned again, her for a copy of all the alarm deactivation times, which will include all the instances you were early. Then as others have said, agree but on the condition you get retrospective over time. She is trying to bully you into leaving imo. This will keep them busy and in the meantime, get advice from ACAS.

TorysSuckRevokeArticle50 · 13/01/2020 17:44

Although, have you really been late by 2 mins 240 times over 5 years and they've never noticed or mentioned it? If that was actually only in the last 3 years as you were getting in early every day for the first 2 years then you are late nearly every other day.

Where I work, 3 occasions of lateness in a 6 month period is cause for disciplinary unless there are exceptional circumstances.

OlivejuiceU2 · 13/01/2020 17:58

Just wanted to say sorry you are going through this, what bastards!

Document everything and stand your ground.

Get advice like people have suggested. Sounds like you’ve been. Good employee and they trying to get out of paying you redundancy

Helpfullilly · 13/01/2020 18:14

ACAS are the people to call, as others have said, free helpline and everything. They can't advise on specifics but can tell you your rights and the law.

www.acas.org.uk/

The employers are in the wrong in all sorts of ways, but this is a bit tricky because in employment law terms you protection mainly rests on potentially being able to take an employer or ex employer to employment tribunal.

You can't generally do that with a company that stops existing before you make a claim, as there is not a legal entity to claim against. It means you may have limited leverage if the company is closing in March and they might mess you about in all sorts of ways (if they are the types, as they seem to be), taking the chance you may have no recourse against them as by the time you can or start taking action the company may not exist. You might be able to get some sort of payment from the government, however, if they really string this out or refuse to pay you.

This might help:

castleassociates.org.uk/blog/redundancy-when-business-stops-trading

www.gov.uk/your-rights-if-your-employer-is-insolvent

Potential recourse will depend on the time scales, how and why they are winding down. If it is the whole company or one aspect.

Try not to panic for now, look at other jobs if you have a redundancy date, get things in writing, call ACAS for free advice.

I'm sorry it is so stressful, these things always are. Your mental health is important, so it might be you sacrifice the possibility of a pay out for your overall wellbeing, but it's obviously not always an easy decision and quite a personal.

Bluntness100 · 13/01/2020 18:33

Of course it's not legal. But the business is shutting down. There will be no money left in it. If there was any it will have been taken out. What's she going to do, she's going to get nothing for any action. The business is dead. And badly dead too if the owner is trying to get a free days work out thr op in this bonkers way. I mean seriously what would it cost for a day's work. And they don't even want to pay that. And are making up mad excuses to get free work.

As said, I doubt there is even redundancy pay coming. I'm sorry op.

Are you paid in advance, or arrears, because it it's arrears I'd be worried about by final salary payment.

Oblomov20 · 13/01/2020 19:03

Nothing is pleasant about redundancy/insolvency, including the vile atmosphere in the last few weeks.

Good luck OP.

Original poster

scaredyscared1114 · 13/01/2020 19:33

So they arent stopping working, they are just shutting the clinic where I work. They also rent 2 other clinics in other locations. My redundancy pay would be around £700, so not loads but that's a months wage to me.

So when I started the deal was that we needed to be in for 8.45 to start work at 9, however we were paid 9-5. This past year they have taken on my colleague who rightly pointed out that this was wrong and if we are working from 8.45. now we get paid 8.45-5, when they say I have been "late" all this time, they mean 8.48, 8.50 etc when originally I didn't get paid until 9 anyway.

OP posts:

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