New civil service dept and job. Culture issue

[Feelingabitashamed]

Hi all,

I have been with the civil service about 5 years and am an SEO grade (middle management).

I have just this last week moved from a policy and programming management job to a policy business management one in another dept. This supports the projects of the directorate through coordinating the reporting, forecasting and bidding, things like that.

I have moved across on a level transfer for a 'foot in the door' to the dept for experience as I really want to retrain in a field linked to this policy area and am doing a masters to lead onto the professional course. Sorry for keeping it vague but think CPS if I wanted to retrain as a criminal solicitor.

Those who know the civil service may be able to vouch that some (not all and never me) in specialist or policy jobs can look down on those in admin or support roles. I am well aware of the faults in the culture as I have worked my way up and been at the sharp end of this in the past.

I have already been experiencing some condescension, snappiness and rudeness from some colleagues. I have had none of this in my last couple of positions so am fairly sure it is linked to some people's silly ideas about the status of my job. I hope it doesn't sound as though I share those ideas but am doing the job for my own gains, I assure you I don't. I am just well aware of how things are.

I have a meeting with my LM on Monday to continue my handover and debrief on last week. He seems nice but 'flappy'.

My question is, do you think I should flag up the behaviour I have experienced (I wouldn't name names at this stage), saying that I understand the culture is this way and don't want to make trouble but would expect his support in shutting down anything much worse than this. This would extend to supporting my team too should they raise a complaint. I'd be really grateful for any thoughts, not just from civil servants.

Or alternatively, should I suck it up and just respond professionally. I really don't want to try and 'call people out' off my own back only to find myself in a worse position.

You don’t say what dept you’re in, but yes I think you can ‘pick his brain’ about ‘resistance’ and ‘how we engage the policy teams in our work.’

There is some good training on ADKAR and resistance management and stakeholder management they might help.

Thanks Backagain that is really useful and a good way to present the issue rather than a personal complaint.

Yes, sorry for being unclear, one of my new colleagues (Mrs Snappy) mentioned using MN so i thought best not to be too detailed!

You feel your pain, some people have no interest in accountability and planning and then wonder why they’re in a mess. Just remind yourself you have been employed to do this role, it is important and don’t apologise for doing it right.

*I feel...

That's annoying, there's no excuse for rudeness and snapping. Is it the sort of job where you have to ask people for lots of information to tight deadlines, etc? If so it might be worth asking your manager if there is value in running a directorate teach-in to explain what you do, why and what the value is to the department.

(I speak as someone who has received many of these type of commissions, some obviously useful and others less so. A bit of context always helps.)

Irene that's exactly it. On my second day I was doing just that as a piece of periodic reporting had been let slide in the absence of someone doing my duties.

That is another really good idea, maybe an introductory email from me saying who I am, why i will be after them for info and a rough timetable of when in the reporting year this will be.

I mean, they've already had an email from my manager but maybe one from me with a bit more of the nitty gritty

I'd suggest coming up with some ideas on how to better engage people, developing some options- then ask for a meeting with your line manager, and put your ideas to them? In some departments the culture is very much against any type of ppm work, and if you go in heavy handed you can really put people's backs up. Doesn't make them right, but a more collaborative approach working with the policy leads to deliver what's needed might help. Also SEO in similar role so understand where you are coming from!

I wonder if there is a certain amount of gradeism going on. At SEO you are just below the “glass ceiling” that many bang their heads against for years at a time, whereas G7 and G6 are feeder grades for SCS so those are the grades when people start looking at you as “something interesting”.

I’ve worked in 3 different departments and the common thing I have found upon them all is the “junior grades” glass ceiling issue. It was less so in operations because junior grades have a lot more responsibility than in policy, but as an SEO in policy I was practically invisible (except when senior colleagues wanted to steal my ideas!).

At G7 I’ve noticed that there’s a whole different attitude towards me. My role kind of sits across programme and business management, and my team often needs info from core policy teams at v short notice. My SEO and HEOs can ask for things from people until they’re blue in the face to no avail, but when I ask I get it back two mins later. Because we run so many conflicting mini projects I sometimes need to delegate attendance at meetings, so I send whichever of my team is hands on with the project. People have objected to me sending “an HEO/SEO” . Now I hate gradeism, so I just tell them that we have a lot of conflicting priorities and it’s better for someone to be there from the team, regardless of who that is. I’m quite new to the role and I gather that my predecessor would have missed the meetings rather than delegate, which I think is bonkers as we're in the kind of environment where things change very fast.

Are you sure the issue isn’t that you have been brought in on a managed move and the vacancy wasn’t available for others as promotion ? You need to prove your worth , I wouldn’t be making a bit deal of the snappiness just head down and do a good job would be my advice. I’m quite new to civil service , on a G6 EOI and encountering something similar but eff them

Yes an email with a forward look is a great idea. Also worth introducing yourself to people in person if you haven't already and having a quick chat to explain what you need and that you realise they're super busy etc.

Congrats on your G6 appointment, MrsByers ! Sorry to hear you're experiencing similar. I'm not sure that's it though to be honest in my case. It seems to be coming from senior colleagues rather than anyone who might have been hoping to get the job. My immediate team have been very welcoming and there's nobody I can think of whose nose might be put out of joint by my starting.

ISleep I am wondering whether you are in my previous dept by your description! I assume good old gradeism might well be part of it. The specialist policy leads are quite highly qualified externally as well as experienced in the civil service so I am more junior to them than an SEO might normally be to a G6 or G7 if that makes sense. The EO who has been showing me the ropes is fondly treated like a child despite having decades of experience and a business degree.

Thanks Kwackerley good to know I'm not the only one in this position. SEO solidarity to you! That is more excellent advice.

I came away from my first week feeling quite upset and belittled, taking it all personally, and now see it as more of a stakeholder management issue that I need to find a practical solution for with the advice of my LM who knows the department a lot better than I do.

I found SEO was the worst grade, for many of the reasons you have mentioned. I felt really stuck in the middle of everything with no real autonomy or power to get things done, and it was so frustrating. Talk to your line manager by all means, but no one is going to admit that gradeism happens. My LM and G6 were incredibly supportive and not gradeist at all but it didn't make a difference.

I think the things I described are common across whitehall as I experienced it in the last dept I was in too. I've also see the thing where EOs are treated like pets, especially the PAs. It's bizarre! I came from an ops department before that and EOs were running offices.

Would be interesting to swap notes if you want to PM :)

What a soul destroying and depressing thread. I do hope you find a solution OP.