Employment - immediate dismissal for first instance ‘negligence’

[Freya202]

Hi I’m hoping there might be some employment law specialists on here who might be able to help me please.

I’ve been dismissed from my job today (senior manager in small company) after an investigation into the conduct of people in my team and my handling of the situation. Their hearings were before mine and the people involved received written warnings. At worst, I was expecting a similar sanction but actually was hoping to persuade the disciplinary hearing that I had not been negligent in my handling of the situation. It’s hard to explain without being too outing but my assessment is that the company has massively overreacted and that my immediate dismissal (with payment in lieu of my notice period) is completely disproportionate. I was told today that the Board have lost trust in me and that there was a serious dereliction of duty on my part.

I’m obviously still in shock but just wanted to know if in these sorts of circumstances I have any kind of case? Can I argue that the punishment doesn’t fit the ‘crime’?

What a shock. Hope things work out one way or another.

They look good Hundred thank you. And yes I was in complete shock yesterday. Today it’s hit me hard and I’ve had a lot of tears. I’ve been continuing to work normally thoughout the investigation and my boss has been pleasant and we’d been making plans for future work - everything has felt normal so I was completely blindsided by it.

No advice to give, but just feel you've been treated horribly and hope it works out for you.

Can I just ask, have you anything in writing from HR people saying it was a storm in a teacup as if they thought the same, how could you reasonably be expected to have behaved differently to how even HR said they would have behaved?

And yes appeal. Anyway. Always appeal.

Not our HR people Pumpkin, people I know who work in HR.

It seems that you and the company have a large difference of opinion as to what is serious and what is a storm in a teacup, and this has led to the board losing confidence in you.

Without knowing the details. I'd imagine that any issue that resulted in multiple people getting written warnings is serious, and you come across as not appreciating that which brings into question your judgement as a senior manager.

You might have been used as an example, however I can see based on only knowing the bones of the situation how it might have come about - plus you've mentioned performance concerns so perhaps they had their eye on you anyway.

You’re probably right Isleep there’s a complete difference of opinion in the severity of the situation and clearly I am at odds with my manager and the board in my interpretation. I just feel that my 6 years good service has counted for nothing in the end. I’ve had personal issues leading to mental health issues this year which my manager is aware of and which have contributed to the performance issues that I think are at the heart of this decision but they have never been formally noted or addressed. I just feel defeated tbh. I loved my job and felt like I had made a really good contribution in my time there.

@Freya202 . It sounds like the company have taken advantage of the situation as opposed to take you down the medical route and risk the disability discrimination stuff. Much easier if they can go the gross misconduct

People who are your friends op are likely to tell you things like it's a storm in a teacup, they are hardly going to say, fuck me that's bad, they will fire you.

It's hard to say if they were right or wrong, because you can't give details of what occurred and how you handled it. So for anyone reading this it could be they used it as a reason to get you out and you have a case, or quite simoly it could be they viewed it as very serious and couldn't see how you could continue in role based on how you managed it.

I think my original point and reason for posting is to find out legally if I can challenge the decision as being unfair when the whole reason for my dismissal is so subjective. They clearly think it’s reasonable because the ‘offence’ was serious enough. I don’t. What I need to know is can I challenge it on that basis. Is the reasonableness of their conclusion and resulting action to dismiss me challengeable at a tribunal? Was hoping to get some legal advice on that on here but will find a lawyer I can consult early next week. Thank you to everyone for your advice and feedback.

I suggest you ask for this to be moved to the Employment board as there are some HR specialists on there
Please only take advice from properly qualified and experienced people as unfair isn’t the same as illegal

Thank you Hopping didn’t realise there was an employment board. Have asked for it to be moved.

Hi there, OP. Just to let you know that we've now moved your thread over to the Employment Issues board. Hope you get lots of useful support and advice.

Best of luck with it all.

Thank you LouMumsnet

The test for unfair dismissal (assuming you are an employee with 2 years service) is - did they have a fair reason, and did they follow a fair process?

They tick the box for fair reason, which is conduct.
Fair process includes things like:

• did they carry out a reasonable investigation
• did they give you notice of meetings
• did you know what you were accused of and see the evidence against you

If they carried out a fair investigation, reasonably concluded you had committed the misconduct (ie: not a completely bizarre conclusion given the evidence) and dismissed you for that reason, it’s likely to be a sound dismissal

Tribunals are not allowed to substitute what they would have done, they have to consider the “band of reasonable responses” - if one other reasonable employer would have reached the same decision, then the dismissal is fair.

I’m really sorry, but I think your best bet is to appeal and beg to be allowed to resign and go with a factual but clean reference.

Thank you Hermione. That’s very clear and I think you’re right

It sounds like you acted 'in good faith' - the infraction would have to be very serious for you to be sacked in spite of that - but if it was that serious, you would think the actual perpetrators would have had more than a written warning.
It may be that they expected a higher level of accountability from you as the senior person but did they say that? You have a right to know the full charge against you so that you can prepare a full answer.
Other reasons for appeal - new evidence, anyone in the company who can testify to your good character and previous clean slate? Procedural: were you given the opportunity to be represented at the disciplinary?
Hope this helps.

I was given the right to be accompanied at the hearing yes but because of the size of the company I had a friend from outside work rather than a colleague. I didn’t find it beneficial tbh other than the moral support. I was told the person accompanying me couldn’t be a lawyer which I think is normal so no complaints on that. I will have a think about new evidence. I want to appeal but I don’t know who would hear the appeal and I don’t want to risk my reference by going for it in the appeal and risking pissing them off even more. I’ve had other people who worked for me telling me that they can’t believe it and that they don’t understand the overreaction etc but I don’t feel I can ask them to say that formally, doesn’t seem fair to drag them into this. I’ll have a think over the weekend about next steps and talk to a lawyer early next week. I appreciate the continued advice on here. I’m an absolute mess. I know worse things happen in life but I’m just so shocked that I’m in this position. It goes to the very heart of your self esteem to be accused of being negligent in the workplace after only ever being well thought of in my whole career and in this job too until probably this past year where I accept Ive struggled a bit.

A lawyer's letter can do wonders.
But really now is the time to decide what you want the outcome to be. Unfortunately, wake up and it's all been a bad dream is not an option. So what's the next best thing?

Hi @Freya202 I work in HR. Sometimes I have dismissed with notice when someone has done something very wrong but out of negligence rather than deliberately. I do think you have been treated in accordance with the ACAS code of practice and the outcome would fall into the range of reasonable responses. Sorry, that’s not what you want to hear. Best thing is to check what their references policy is, if they just confirm the dates of employment or will include the reason you no longer work there as well. ACAS can be helpful but I don’t think that they can magically undo this so that you can get a settlement or ask for it to be recorded as a resignation instead.

What jumped out at me is that you say you have mental health problems.

So you can potentially claim unfair dismissal and disability discrimination.

If you were performing badly, you could argue that this was a reflection of your mental health problems and your employer did not offer support or adjust your goals / responsibilities. Were you feeling stressed, under pressure etc? This can influence your reactions and decisions particularly regarding your handling of the matter.

I got a lot of help from the formal grievance website (I don't work for them honest!) It helped me argue my own case. I also have a union and I have done loads of research on my own about my rights and employment law cases etc. Happy to give you some advice if you want to PM.

PS I would do the following if I were you, in this order:

1 submit a letter of appeal (plenty of templates / examples online)

2 start the ACAS early conciliation process if appeal unsuccessful - be mindful of timescale, they might drag the appeal on! Its free to do the EC process and you don't have to go through a lawyer etc. you can do it on your own. You don't need to progress to the tribunal stage if you don't want to

3, raise a tribunal if the above doesn't get your job back or a better financial offer.

If you resign from a job then you can’t get unemployment benefits (whatever they are called these days)? The OP will not get a penny for what, 16 weeks or something? She may find it useful to have that clarified if anyone knows the position so she can consider whether she can afford to resign (if allowed) or not?

If she’s sacked then she will get a factual reference. Which presumably will say she was dismissed for gross misconduct, which won’t look good.

If she resigns a new employer will presumably ask for references from her last post so they would provide a factual reference there stating service etc but not reason she ‘left’ but she would need savings or financial help from a friend or relative as she won’t have any money to live in until she starts a new job and works a month til payday?

Perhaps there is advice on here somewhere OP, I’ve not searched. Good luck.

If you resign from a job then you can’t get unemployment benefits

This is also the case if you lost your employment due to your own conduct through disciplinary. The claims process checks the reason for leaving with the last employer.

So you can potentially claim unfair dismissal and disability discrimination.

There is no evidence at all of disability discrimination. Constructing "cases" in hindsight out of "facts" that didn't happen is irresponsible, and can lead to tribunal costs for litigatious claims and references that are even worse!

The facts here are clear. The OP knows that. Multiple people who they managed were doing something so wrong that it amounted to formal misconduct, and the OP didn't think that serious enough to take action on. Not just one case, but multiple cases. That suggests a culture of misconduct (regardless of what the misconduct was) and a permissive management. Regardless of whether the OP thought it serious enough, the OP's employer thought that culture and permissiveness was not acceptable and they had a right in law to decide that. To be honest, if it had been a single lapse of judgement about the seriousness of misconduct, I would possibly agree that this was too harsh an outcome (depending on what that misconduct was). But taking no action on serial misconduct within a team gives every possible grounds for management to conclude that they have no trust and confidence in the manager. Dismissal on those grounds would certainly be amongst the options open to any reasonable employer.