Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Work

Chat with other users about all things related to working life on our Work forum.

Flip

Original poster

Taking TOIL then doing overtime

25 replies

ShitOnIt78 · 01/11/2019 17:39

Hi is @flowery around, or other HRBPs? I wanted to check something out regarding TOIL and overtime.

Some people in my team are taking on tasks as overtime that take around 2 full working days to do - fine all good but what some are doing is taking 2 days TOIL to get it done but then claiming 2 days overtime pay.

Is this right? My understanding of TOIL was that you be are being paid with the time off, so can you then claim double rate OT pay as well?! If it's not I want to tell them before we get audited and they get into trouble if it's not ok to do it.

Thanks!

OP posts:

flowery · 02/11/2019 08:53

I don’t understand- if they are taking TOIL them by definition they are at home (or wherever) not working?

MagentaRocks · 02/11/2019 08:55

Do you mean they are taking the days off then working anyway and claiming the higher rate? I would say this is a no no. Where I am we work shifts, you can do overtime when on leave as long as it is outside your normal shift hours and are not actually taking leave for that time. So if you were working 8-5 and took leave you could do overtime say 6-10pm but not during the hours of 8-5.

PassingIntoTheWest · 02/11/2019 09:45

But with TOIL, you're being paid for the work that you did at a different time, you're not being paid for the time off. I think it sounds fine.

flowery · 02/11/2019 09:55

” But with TOIL, you're being paid for the work that you did at a different time, you're not being paid for the time off. I think it sounds fine.”

You know what TOIL stands for, right? Time Off In Lieu, ie, you are taking time off work in lieu of extra time you spent at work unpaid on another date. If you’re receiving pay for work done on another date, rather than taking the equivalent amount of time off work, then you’re just getting overtime. Which is perfectly fine if that’s the policy and that is what the employer thinks is happening.

EBearhug · 02/11/2019 11:56

You can claim time off in lieu of overtime claimed, or you can claim overtime pay, but not both.

At our place, the default is TOIL unless agreed in advance with management that you can claim overtime payments.

I suppose some very generous employers might offer payment and time off, but it would be unusual.

PassingIntoTheWest · 02/11/2019 11:59

Was that comment directed to me @flowery?

I believe that I know what TOIL is 😄🤔.

Work x hours extra on date a.
Don't work x hours on date b.

flowery · 02/11/2019 12:32

Er, yes, that’s why I quoted your post. You seemed unaware that the T and O stand for time off. If someone is at work, they are not having time off, are they?!

flowery · 02/11/2019 12:35

”1. Work x hours extra on date a.
2. Don't work x hours on date b.”

Exactly. Completely contradicts what you said earlier though!

Original poster

ShitOnIt78 · 02/11/2019 14:33

Yes taking TOIL, but still coming into work to do a report for a different establishment and claiming two days overtime to do it.

OP posts:

Original poster

ShitOnIt78 · 02/11/2019 14:35

We are psychologists, based at establishment 1 and are contracted for 37 hours per week- we always have loads of TOIL as so much work on. Establishment 2 has assessments that need doing urgently so some of us are using TOIL to get 2 days off, then going to establishment 2, doing the assessment and then claiming overtime for doing it. Is that clearer?! Sorry!

OP posts:

NeverTwerkNaked · 02/11/2019 14:38

That seems fine to me. Your on a day off, what you choose to do with it is your choice.

flowery · 02/11/2019 14:40

Then you’re not taking TOIL at all, you’re claiming overtime. Which is perfectly fine if that is what your policy/management allow.

Original poster

ShitOnIt78 · 02/11/2019 14:40

If it's ok that's brilliant, I just wanted to check as it seems like being "paid" twice, once in time and again I'm money, as well as obviously already being paid salary for the days too.

OP posts:

flowery · 02/11/2019 14:41

”Your on a day off, what you choose to do with it is your choice.”

No, they are not having a day off, they are at work and getting paid.

Original poster

ShitOnIt78 · 02/11/2019 14:42

@flowery but they are taking TOIL, they log it as TOIL and don't do their own work for the day. Instead, they sit in a different room and work on work for another establishment

OP posts:

flowery · 02/11/2019 14:43

” If it's ok that's brilliant”

It wouldn’t be ok in most places, no. TOIL is time off in lieu, overtime is extra pay. If you’re allowed to claim overtime instead of taking time off, then fine, but don’t dress it up as being TOIL because it isn’t. If you are misleading anyone it isn’t ok, because figures about money and also working time will be distorted. Make sure what you are doing is accurately recorded as claiming extra pay rather than taking time off in lieu, and that the relevant people have approved it.

Original poster

ShitOnIt78 · 02/11/2019 14:43

They then put in an overtime claim for the time period and receive overtime pay. If they don't take TOIL, they can't do the extra paid work as we cant do it at weekends.

OP posts:

unfathomablefathoms · 02/11/2019 14:43

So they're not actually getting the benefit of the TOIL then if they're working those days? Or is Establishment 2 a separate employer and they're using TOIL to go and work there at better rates?

I don't see what the issue is, they're the ones being disadvantaged not the employer, surely?

flowery · 02/11/2019 14:44

Different room different location, what difference does that make?

flowery · 02/11/2019 14:47

”So they're not actually getting the benefit of the TOIL then if they're working those days?”

Yes exactly. Many employers prefer people to take TOIL rather than pay overtime, either for budget reasons and/or to ensure people are getting compensatory rest if they work too long hours.

unfathomablefathoms · 02/11/2019 14:48

Oh. Interesting.

Is the TOIL legitimately earned?

Just asking because I thought this thread was going to be about people inventing unnecessary overtime tasks to get TOIL and gaming things that way.

flowery · 02/11/2019 14:51

If they are contracted to work 40 hours a week, but work 40 hours over the first four days, then take “TOIL” the fifth day but go to work and work 8 hours, and claim overtime for it, then there has been no TOIL. All that’s happened is they’ve worked 8 hours over the 40 hours they are supposed to do, and have claimed overtime for that.

flowery · 02/11/2019 14:52

Which is absolutely fine as long as it is recorded accurately and is known about and approved by anyone who needs to.

filka · 02/11/2019 15:37

TOIL is an employment policy adopted by an employer who does not want to pay premium rates for overtime, so for any overtime worked you get time off your next basic hours instead. Thus your overtime is effectively paid at single time.

On this basis, if someone was having a TOIL day and chose to come into work, the same policy should reward that work with more TOIL, not a premium overtime payment.

CarpetDiem · 03/11/2019 20:21

Where I work we accumulate TOIL.
So in response to the OPs question if I work 8 hours over my contracted hours, I would take that time back as a day off at a later date.
If I choose to work an extra shift on the day I have taken as TOIL that is fine, it’s my time to do with as I want -and I would get paid for it.

Flip