Why aren’t we more angry about the gender pay gap

[catspyjamas123]

There’s every sort of topic on MN but not much about the gender pay gap. Why isn’t everyone angrier? My own employer has published figures and it’s 29 per cent.

My own department is hugely male dominated so there is a mindset - conscious or subconscious - that it’s a job for men. I feel like I’m in the 1950s - a rare exception.

I am a lone parent supporting two kids and I do at least need the same money as a man doing the same job! I have no idea where I personally stand compared to colleagues.

I suspect working hard and asking for pay rises won’t change the mindset. It’s time for some legal action. Where is the campaign on this??

Every time a woman comes on here concerned because she has discovered a male colleague is paid more, she gets told by many people that it’s tough luck, she should have negotiated harder. Most of the people saying that will be women, given the demographic on MN.

If women continue to pull each other down, and sustain the culture where he (because it is ‘he’) who shouts loudest gets paid more and that is deemed an acceptable method of determining reward, then we’re never going to have an effective equal pay campaign.

The starting point is the same wages for the same job and hours but its inextricably linked I think to the whole maternity leave, flexible working, part-time hours, women as primary carers issue.
(Shared parental leave? Great idea. Except a tiny fraction of men have taken it up.)

The bigger issue (and of greater concern I think) is that society has handed financial control largely to men.

Women are more likely to be the SAHP (and lone parents)
Women are more likely to work part-time or in lower paid flexible jobs
Women are more likely to suffer the pension deficit (due to giving up work to look after children)
Women are pressured (by a myriad of reasons) to pursue jobs in lower paid sectors.
Women are indeed pregnant then screwed.

It's artificial I think to separate equal pay from the issues above.

Maybe that's why it isn't pursued as vehemently as some issues on MN, because its inextricably linked to working mothers and all too often is perceived (wrongly) as criticism of SAHMs.

Most political, financial and corporate decisions are made by men.
A scary thought.

Surely it’s chicken and egg? If women were not habitually underpaid then maybe more families would share childcare. Women would keep their careers so if subsequently left as sole parents they could afford to provide for the family. And then economic control would not be in the hands of men.

Maternity is only a short period in a career. Not really long enough to affect progress. It’s more the mindset of those deciding on pay and promotions.

Becoming a SAHP is all very well but if your spouse abandons you and you have given up work you will be in the doo-doo. Better for women and their children for them to keep a hand in (at least) with work.

speak for yourself; I had 8 yrs off as SAHM b/c of having children. Plus 3 other lots of maternity leave. I would not have that big gap if I hadn't had kids (maternity)

I like PT & flexible & lower responsibility than I could otherwise have.

I like Samira Ahmed & I know who she is from politics programmes... but she can't claim to have the same household name profile as Jeremy Vine. Just can't.

It’s not a question of us comparing our own set-ups. The key point is equal pay for equal work - it’s not happening.

I personally know of women affected who don’t have kids yet. This isn’t just about motherhood. It’s about how employers are treating all women because some have kids. Men do have kids too!!

There is research showing that no matter how hard women negotiate they still get a worse deal. And why isn’t negotiating a pay package a skill taught to youngsters in PSHE? Most of us haven’t got a clue how to go about it.

I know that when I started in my “big break” first proper job aged 25 I was paid £2k less than the man who started nine months later with same experience and degree in the same job. I only found out 15 years later about that. I didn’t have kids then. It’s happening everywhere.

Some solidarity, please!!

Solidarity

It's hard to prove and the legal route to fair pay is not easy, so it lingers.

Maternity breaks are a red herring. Women who have no children have the same wages as women with children. Women who only take. A maternity break for a couple of years in a 50 year career should not see a huge impact on their career , but they do

Until people (men and women ) lose the unconscious bias that men are better, it's going to be hard to shift. Until women are seen as passionate and assertive rather than hysterical and shrill simply becuase their voices are higher than men's voices, it's going to be hard to shift. Until women can stand in a meeting and be heard not looked at. Until women are viewed as equals, not someone better at taking notes, mak8nh the tea and sorting out admin...

The problem is we are all meant to be so grateful to be there, aren’t we? Men don’t see it that way, they feel entitled. Historically women were paid less because employers viewed it as pin money for the little woman who dared leave the home. The law has changed but the bosses appear not to have noticed.

Why should my family lose out because I don’t have a penis?

Don’t worry. Those who identify as women will soon balance out those pesky pay gap stats.

dameofdilemma

I agree with a lot of what you say but you can add to the mix that men on average work longer hours, more likely to work overtime, more likely to take on higher risk or dangerous roles, more likely to commute further distances or relocate alltogether for a higher paying job, more likely to study STEM subjects at university. There is most definitely an earnings gap but it is lazy analysis to just attribute it, as many on here do, to just sexism.

But women who do all those things, never have kids, live to work , still suffer

Because people dont understand it. They believe its just the choices women make that lead to it so therefore we can as a group choose to be different and it will go away.

I think it’s because it’s such a big and complicated issue. I agree with equal pay for equal work - but even if that was sorted the pay gap would still be large because of women taking ML/part time etc. Some of whom genuinely want that as a choice. There’s also the problem of gender stereotyping steering bots/girls down certain routes - with traditional ‘female’ work being lower paid - cleaning, caring etc. It’s not right but it’s not something that can be repaired quickly - probably at least a generation.

Well I don’t know about you but I can’t wait another generation! I thought it would be sorted by now. Men also have kids and should maybe be encouraged to take a bit more responsibility for them.

Maternity breaks are a red herring. Women who have no children have the same wages as women with children

I don't think this is true? See link:

www.vox.com/2018/2/19/17018380/gender-wage-gap-childcare-penalty

That doesn’t explain why as a childless 25-year-old I started on £2k less than my identical male colleague or why my childless 40something colleague is on £9k less than the man doing the same job. Just two anecdotes that must be the tip of the iceberg.

If women start off on less they are more likely to HAVE to cut hours etc when they have kids because they can’t afford all the childcare. Catch 22.

This is one of the main reasons I work for the NHS.

There is transparency and there are large swathes of women doing professional jobs who are not discriminated against.

As another childless woman I sympathise OP. In a previous role I discovered I was being paid a minimum of £4k less than my three male peers, despite having more sector-specific knowledge than them. I was the only female Head of Department in that directorship; my boss was male, the CEO was male, the board of directors included more people called Nicholas than it did women. I voted with my feet and moved to a job with a transparent pay scale.

I've never experienced it. I was paid the same as men doing the same job, we are now on different pay due to end of year payrises based on performance over the last few years.

All jobs in my org are banded and people who startvon more money scored higher at interview, plenty of women earn more than men and vice versa

I feel very lucky to work somewhere where the gender pay gap is in the favour of the women.

I think it is in the too hard box as noone really knows how to change it.
And many don't want to

I know and have heard samira Ahmed’s programmes on radio 4. I don’t know who Jeremy vine is...
I guess news vs entertainment Might explain part of it. But then there is the Carrie Gracie, Jon sopel thing.

But choices within families also play a role eg how long people breastfeed and the facilities for breast milk pumping at work places...

The time spent breastfeeding is a tiny total of your career? Six months, even a year, is nothing in all. Going part time explains some of it but part-timers should also get equal consideration for promotion. Plus more flexibility would help retain female staff.

I think because the information, until how, has been obscured from view every case has been seen as the exception rather than the rule.

My own reactions to the Samira Ahmed case were interesting. I read the headlines and initially dismissed it in my mind because Jeremy Vine had a much higher profile, so it my initial reaction was that it was a fuss about nothing - even though I consider myself to be a feminist. But then I looked at the background, education and track record of Samira Ahmed - all absolutely stellar. She has been doing the job for years. I can understand Jeremy Vine being paid slightly more - he is a household name and Points of View is a more prominent show - but he was paid multiples of her salary. How is that remotely fair?

I previously worked for a very left-wing and female-dominated organisation, about as politically correct as it is possible to be. A younger man was appointed to the same pay band as me, with significantly less knowledge and experience than me, but given a job title that had the word 'manager'. I was far senior in every respect and had been doing the job for years, but if the two of us went into a meeting together, what conclusion would people come to? I raised it with my manager and with HR but nothing was done before I left and another woman is now in my old role, so the problem has been perpetuated. In my opinion, if that organisation can't see the issue, what hope is there for the typical workplace?

I've never experienced it either- and I've worked in both private and public sector. I'm not saying it doesn't exist but I've never experienced it.

I thought the main reason for the gap was that a lot of low paid jobs (eg nurse, carer, shop assistant) have a disproportionate number of women doing them.

Transparency would be the way to change it. Publish everyone's salary.

What I am saying is that 1 year for anyone would affect their career - particularly if repeated for subsequent children. Breast feeding (if there are no appropriate facilities) make it hard to split shared parental leave equally between a couple.