Being managed out while on sick leave

[BucketResidence]

Name changed for this. Have been at present company for five years. Six months ago my brother took his own life and I was the person who found him, it was truly horrendous. Subsequently I was diagnosed with PTSD, depression and anxiety and have been signed off work since then.
My line manager asked to meet me for coffee a few days ago for an ‘informal chat.’ I have been feeling a bit better and asked her about a phased return but She basically told me off the record that the company don’t want me to return to work for them as they deem me ‘too vulnerable’ and ‘fragile.’
She told me not to hand my notice in, that I should ‘play the long game’ and wait until the company offer a severance package. She reiterated that this chat was completely confidential.
Is this legal? I’m now panicking about having to start job hunting again soon when all I wanted was to get well and return to my old job.
Does anyone have any advice please?

She's helping you out, sit tight and see what they offer. After 6 months most companies start the process of evaluating whether an employee can return, possibly sooner - it could be a return on a pt basis or to a different role, or to terminate employment. 6 months is a long time. What's happened is terrible but as an employer they need to make firm future plans.

You are not entitled to have union/formal representation at meetings with management as such, but I would be very wary of letting your manager corner you again. If any requests for meetings with management on a one to one come up again, I would ask what it is regarding, preferably via email, and ask permission to record the meeting on your mobile- you could say it's because your condition means you have trouble remembering everything. ( I expect that request would be denied though as no manager would want that, especially if up to no good....)You could send minutes on email of every further meeting with management. Equally, you could flag up your protected status under the equalities act by requesting a phased return to work under an occupational health referral - and really tell the occ health doc how bad your trauma has been. I can tell you now that an occupational health report highlighting that you are 'likely to fall within the remit of the disability provision of the Equalities Act 2010' may make your managers think twice or at least slow down. In my experience, unions are a useful buffer for back up/ minder status but when the going gets tough - capability/restructuring - but a good solicitor (agree a flat rate before) will set your mind at rest good on the legalities. I tried to steer a middle course between the two - my union, who I thought were too soft, and the solicitor, who wanted to launch a grievance and go down the the legal route, which the union said would see me out because very adversarial. I am still in the job, purely by dint of insisting on compltete transparency- politely flagging things up on emails to HR, minuting everything, copying in the union etc. My aim is to steer a middle course and keep the job by religiously documenting everything and copying in union, thereby implying the threat of a formal grievance - and occasionally asking what the grievance policy is - but never actually launching one. Incidentally, the settlements law has changed in the wake of the me too movement, meaning that gagging orders could be invalid as part of settlements in cases of discrimination. You probably want to avoid that kind of expensive legal wrangle anyway so, I would do all of the above. Get occ health referral, join a union, document dealings with management, copy union in on emails, get union rep in if things if get tough, secretly get some professional legal advice ( agree flat rate first and don't tell the union) and just hang fire. I think you can survive this - I did.x

Dont plop on your immediate line manager. They may have had the best intentions in having a quiet word. How do you feel? Are you ready to return to work? if so then press ahead with that plan and get yourself back in the driving seat and earning. The chances are thats where you need to be and will feel better for it.

The absolute truth is that so many companies have this touchy feely carey public image and policies but the truth is, if your not in work for a long time, someone will single you out as a liability and seek to chop you.

Dont be in that position..

True the law can give you some shelter if you have a recognised disability but it is not a fireproof shield.

Trade Unions,,dont rely on them. They are there to just take your money and are often not bothered about foot soldiers being thrown under the bus.

It's incredulous that people on here think the OP can suddenly announce to their employer that they are disabled. It doesn't work like that.

It would need a medical assessment by the OPs GP and for the Gap to make the decision as to whether the condition is long-term, sufficiently detrimental that the OP is going to suffer long lasting health issues that will continue to affect them over the long term.

I sincerely hope the OP doesn't receive such a diagnosis and that with good quality medical supervision, treatment and counselling that they make a full recovery, rather than being disabled.

GP not GaP

I said that the diagnosis should be made by occupational health.

Some of the advice on this thread, however well meaning, is completely incorrect and bordering on the bizarre.

Anyway. Yes, it’s possible you qualify as disabled for Equality Act purposes if your condition will be likely to last over 12 months and it substantially affects your day to day activities. Not just work - but daily life and “normal” tasks.

If you meet that criteria then it’s possible that the comments by your manager are discriminatory - for something arising in consequence of the disability and/or direct discrimination due to assumptions made.

Proving it however could be difficult.

So to answer your original question - is it lawful - if you are disabled, no. Even if you aren’t, being told you’re likely to be removed could be a breach of trust and confidence. But it might be difficult proving it.

Trade Unions,,dont rely on them. They are there to just take your money and are often not bothered about foot soldiers being thrown under the bus.

Unions aren't magicians. If you take a case to them that is unviable they will not be able to turn it into something different. They work with the facts they are given. It is inaccurate to generalise that Unions just take people money and aren't bothered.

daisychain is wrong and not for the first time but then again I believe she's in HR and unlike me, is not in a disability/equality or legal role. I've had her posts deleted before for being disablist.

You don't need GP or OH report to be a disabled person. This is akin to the mistaken belief that you need to be 'registered disabled'. There is no such thing as a register.

If someone is blind or deaf or a wheelchair user - do they really need a GP's report to prove its long lasting? come on!!! If I lost my sight for 3 months, am I not disabled during these 3 months or am I only entitled to employer support once its lasted 12 months or more? FFS.

I'm quite well known in the disability field so there is a lot of interest in my upcoming case.

Those saying don't report your manager - I made the mistake of thinking my manager was on my side. She wasn't. She was two faced.

I hope the OP comes back and updates us. OP please speak to your union or a lawyer. There's a lot of wrong, ignorant and concerning advice on here.

I have never had any posts deleted on MN, ever. You must be confused. And I'm no in any way disablist. You can peddle lies if you want I have nothing to defend. And how do you know I'm HR? I've never said that anywhere.

I'd appreciate if you take your aggression elsewhere if you have an axe to grind. Thanks.

An employer will need some evidence of a disability especially if it's a MH related, not every employer is as open to supporting people with disabilities as others so it makes sense to have some evidence from the employee's GP. That isn't disablist, it's common sense.

I'm very sorry for your loss OP. What you've gone through is unimaginable.

But the honest answer, as an employer, is that you need to be showing some effort into getting back to work. Your role has had to be covered for 6 months now, and that is often unsustainable as a long term arrangement. Yes what you've been through is horrendous but they are also trying to run a business at the end of the day. If you like your job, and want to stay there, I would try and go to your GP and see about a fit note? I hope things get better for you soon

"hello doctor, I am feeling anxious"

"here's a questionnaire to answer, you can select any answer you want, oh you've ticked 'very high', thats you definitely got anxiety'.

Yeah @daisychain01 that's proof alright. Speaking as someone who does have anxiety and went to the GP.

And its "disabled people" not "people with disabilities"

And yes, I did get your replies to me deleted as I reported them as disablist. I suggest you check your watched list more carefully.

The OP could potentially get back to work if adjustments and support were in place. That's what my own GP and OH are now saying about me. It's a catch 22 I'm in. Work want me back but won't do anything to get me back. Some serious victim blaming going on in the PP

No pint joining a union if you are not in one. It's too late once the issue has started.

First step - call acas and get their step by step advice on what to do next.

Second check your insurance to see if it includes employment legal advice.

Next don't panic. Worst case is they do make an offer. With 5 years service and ill health you might actually get a decent offer which would give you some breathing space to recover before you have to consider going back to work.

It's rude cluttering up the OPs thread with your axe-grinding @username2020. Stop it. Thanks.

OP you said in your first post that you were starting to feel a bit better and thinking about a phased return to work. Is that what you want to do?

If so, speak to your GP and if they are supportive of you returning, ask for a fit note with their recommendations for a phased return on it. And if you have occupational health, I suggest you ask to be referred to them.

don't worry, this is my last post on this thread. Just wanted to warn OP against some of the advice on here, as I know from my own experience that advice can be completely wrong from certain users. Telling me I'm being unreasonable, I'm not disabled, to let it go, expecting too much of my employer, don't raise a grievance, its not discrimination etc.

If I'd followed that advice, I would not be in the strong position I'm in now, with lots of support to proceed with my case.

Anyway good luck to you OP if you are still reading.

@daisychain01 I often read this employment board and just wanted to say that I find your advice always seems sensible and balanced. Thanks for the time you put into supporting people on here.

OP you have some great advice here from people like daisychain01 who always adds so much value, knowledge and experience

I think some posters have missed that you have been through a very traumatic life experience and none of us know whether what your line manager said is true or not from the employers's perspective. I think it's possible that you suggested a phased return after such a long absence.

I hope you find a way forward as anywhere I have worked a phased return would be reasonable over say a month after a long absence

I've got no reason to big myself up but just to say @username2020 any advice given by anyone including me is an opinion on a free and best efforts basis, with info we are given. The advice may not be what the poster expects, that's why RW assessment of the case is crucial. I'm glad you received the advice you think is fair from your legal team, why would I not want the best for you or anyone in difficulty?

Invariably we encourage a poster to seek RW support and legal advice (with suggested options, again best effort basis, best knowledge at the time), because we on here risk getting it wrong if we get a snapshot, not the complete picture.

I think you should take some legal advice on this.

Self identifying as having a disability and/or having this confirmed is not a firewall against being terminated. The Equality Act gives information as to hose who are automatically within scope and also gives guidance as to under what circumstances you could fall within scope or indeed not. It then goes on to say what level of protections and adjustments an employer must afford those who are within scope. Many of those protections fall within the parameters as to what is reasonable. Again reasonableness is open to some interpretation.

Leaving that aside its always best to have all your ducks in a row as you become aware of issues. So if for example you self identify as having a disability and you are aware of this two years ago, it may be the right thing to do to evidence this two years ago. It is not ideal to flag it when trouble arises.

Again some employers might take the view that,well we did all possible and reasonable,this person cant do the work we require of them so they are being booted.

What will the person do then? suck it up or move to engage via an employment tribunal? They will have to build and fund a case. Who will support them? Many will just go away and lick their wounds.

Best not to find yourself in that position..back to work..