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Help...redundancy whilst on maternity leave

89 replies

Daisypops · 31/07/2007 12:58

I'm currently on additional maternity leave. I have been told that my job is redundant and I will have to apply for another position within the company. I have read that it is unlawful to make a woman redundant whilst on maternity leave and the employer MUST offer her a suitable alternative position. Apparently it is the only time when positive discrimination is allowed.

Does anyone have any advice or information.

Also are you entitled to legal aid whilst on maternity leave. I'm not on income support and still classed as employed.

TIA x

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Daisypops · 25/08/2007 17:47

Hi Ribena,

Thanks for your posts. I have sent them the info from the EOC website.

I can't really get my head round what they said about a single redundancy. What is their point? Can you help?

My 12 months maternity leave is up in January, I was considering going back in October but I'm not now.

I can't read their letter again because it gets me angry that they are fobbing me off and wanting to buy time by talking crap.

Thanks again. x

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Daisypops · 25/08/2007 18:13

Hi Ribena,

Thanks for your posts. I have sent them the info from the EOC website.

I can't really get my head round what they said about a single redundancy. What is their point? Can you help?

My 12 months maternity leave is up in January, I was considering going back in October but I'm not now.

I can't read their letter again because it gets me angry that they are fobbing me off and wanting to buy time by talking crap.

Thanks again. x

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Daisypops · 25/08/2007 18:14

Oops

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flowerybeanbag · 25/08/2007 18:29

daisy hi. I think when they were talking about single redundancy they were referring to the fact that a lot of info available on various websites relating to redundancy during maternity leave deals with procedure for the situation where only that person is at risk of redundancy. The stuff about not having to compete etc is not immediately obvious in all the usual places, so they wouldn't have found it straightaway.
Astonishing that they haven't managed as Ribena says to pick up the phone to someone to sort it out though!
The CAB will help you, and try and be reassured by the fact that the law is clear and on your side so it should get resolved fairly easily - there is nothing subjective or complicated in this case.

Daisypops · 25/08/2007 18:38

Hi fbb, but I quoted the legislation that you referred to. Like Ribena says it can only apply where more than one person is to be made redundant otherwise there would be no one for it to apply to?!

I'm going to the CAB on Tuesday.

I just think they are trying to wriggle out of it and fob me off. I'm very mad.

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flowerybeanbag · 25/08/2007 18:42

That's absolutely right. I think the problem is they wanted to actually find it for themselves. It is against normal legal principles, so they probably didn't really believe it, iyswim. They sound more incompetent than deliberately being obnoxious I think. No excuse of course!
Good luck with CAB, keep us informed.

Daisypops · 25/08/2007 18:56

I'm going to e-mail and acknowledge their naff letter. I don't even want to spend the price of a 1st class stamp on them at the moment!

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flowerybeanbag · 25/08/2007 18:57

go for it, email is fine, save your stamps!

RibenaBerry · 26/08/2007 11:49

Daisy,

I have been thinking about this and looking at the guidance on the various websites (EOC, etc) and will try and explain what I think has happened. It might be a bit long, so bear with me.

The problem is that the guidance often does not spell out that the rules on maternity leave redundancies give those women preference over other people at risk of redundancy. This is because, if you read the legislation as someone with no knowledge of the rules on redundancy and using common sense, it is quite clear. The law says:

"2. Where there is a suitable available vacancy, the employee [on maternity leave] is entitled to be offered (before the end of her employment under her existing contract) alternative employment with her employer or his successor, or an associated employer, under a new contract of employment which complies with paragraph (3) (and takes effect immediately on the ending of her employment under the previous contract)."

If you read that as a normal person, it makes sense: if there is a suitable position, you are entitled to be offered it.

The problem comes that HR people (actually, that's unfair, what I mean is HR people who don't know about maternity redundancies) don't just read that section in a common sense way. They try to apply what they already know about redundancies to it. They know that, in a redundancy situation, an employer has to look for suitable alternative employment for EVERYONE at risk of redundancy. Therefore, like your daft employer, they read this section and think "oh, that's the same rule as normal, I have to look for suitable alternative employment". They then merrily continue down their usual, comfortable route of setting up a selection process to choose amongst all the people who could take the same vacancy.

The problem is not that the law is unclear but that the HR person has filtered that straightforward language through their own understanding of what a redundancy process means and not taken it at face value (if you see what I mean). If you take it at face value, it says that you have to be OFFERED the vacancy, and this obviously takes preference over the fact that you would CONSIDER all potentially suitable people for the vacancy.

If your HR sat back and thought logically about the wording of the legislation then they would realise (as we have discussed on previous posts) that it only makes sense in a situation where there is a women on maternity leave and another person at risk of redundancy going for the same vacancy.

Does that make sense at all?

Just to echo what Flowerybeanbag has said, do be reassured that this is a very simple case once your employer gets the right advice. The facts as I see them are this:

  1. They have admitted that the job is suitable for you by putting you in the ring-fenced pool.

  2. Sooner or later, someone will explain the law to them and they will realise that you have to be offered the job (unless there is another women on maternity leave in the pool, where the two of you will need to compete).

The important thing for you to do is get them something from CAB or whoever (something on offical, scary looking paper) pointing out that you are right and they are wrong. From your employer's point of view, it will be hard for them to accept from you that they have got it so wrong. They need to hear it from someone 'in authority' (IYSWIM). Assuming you what to stay with the company, you need to get them to see this quickly, before they possibly appoint someone else to the role. If they do, it will be very hard for them to take the job off him/her and probably the best you can hope for is a settlement package. That's all well and good, but it's not a job...

Daisypops · 26/08/2007 21:25

Ribena, thank you very much for looking in to this and taking the time to post such a long message. I've just read the law again and what you have said makes complete sense- HR people are applying what they already know to the law. Thats why the letter they sent me was so broad and not specific to me being on maternity.

I saw a chap from work tonight when I was at the petrol station, he said everyone seems to know that they have to offer me a job its the talk of the office. I just want it all to be sorted. I hope it doesn't go on for ages.

What to you actually do to 'file a claim for unfair dismissal'? I've quoted that in my e-mail and I don't even know where to start, I expect the CAB will advise.

Is there anything anywhere that clearly says I must be offered a job with competing?

Thanks again Ribena, I really do appreciate your advice and time. x

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Daisypops · 26/08/2007 21:33

Ribena, just read your post again re the 'offered' and 'considered' bit. I think my employer needs to speak to their legal people and get this sorted. If they'd have done this in the first place, before telling me I was redundant then there would be no need for all this!

As far as I am aware I have been ring fenced for 2 posts, if I am unsuccesul with the 1st (me and another lady suitable) I can 'apply' for the 2nd but there are 6 other people that are suitable for the 2nd. I don't think any of the others are on maternity.

I can't wait to go to the CAB, this is on my mind all the time now and I need to get someone to take over it for me!

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RibenaBerry · 27/08/2007 12:34

Yes, once you pass it over to the CAB it will be a huge weight off your mind.

To claim for unfair dismissal you fill in a form and send it off to the employment tribunal. The vast majority of claims settle but,if it didn't, there would be a hearing. It's not as bad as it sounds. Your employer would be daft to fight this case. Don't worry about unfair dismissal for now though, you need to concentrate on getting the right job offered to you so that you don't need to leave!

Daisypops · 28/08/2007 15:55

I've been to the CAB. I have to ring theor employment expert tomorrow and he/she will call me back. They were quite reassuring.

I'm quite angry at the moment that I had to spend a morning with my dd at the CAB. I'm not sure I actually want to go back and work there now. Its very sad.

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Daisypops · 28/08/2007 16:07

Can I just check that the fact that I'm on additional maternity leave doesn't affect anything?

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flowerybeanbag · 28/08/2007 16:43

Hi daisy, glad the CAB were reassuring.
No the fact that you are on AML doesn't affect anything in terms of redundancy etc. As I'm sure you know you are not entitled to benefits during this time, but all your statutory rights continue.

Daisypops · 29/08/2007 10:00

The CAB phone lines are constantly busy.

I went down there yesterday, because I couldn't get through thenthey sent me home with the same phone number I was trying all yesterday morning FFS.

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flowerybeanbag · 29/08/2007 10:20

Oh Daisy, what a nightmare.
Sit tight. DH is a solicitor, he is telephoning his employment law contact at work to get the actual statute that this piece of legislation is from so that if necessary you can send it to the HR dept.
Don't panic, we will sort you out, and if it comes to it, we'll fill in an ET1 (tribunal claim form) for you. It is a clear case of the law not being followed, so it is straightforward, but don't worry, please.

flowerybeanbag · 29/08/2007 10:41

Daisy, the statute is Maternity and Parental Leave Regulations 1999 this is the actual legislation itself, and the appropriate bit is regulation 10.
As it says, when you are in this situation and there is a suitable vacancy, you are entitled to be offered it. Not considered, as normal redundancy stuff says, but offered.

Do an email to your HR dept with this link, hopefully when they have the actual legislation pointed out to them they will believe it, and if not, as I say, we will help you do a claim form, it would be v straightforward.

Daisypops · 29/08/2007 12:42

Thank you to you and your DH FBB, I really appreciate your help as I'm not getting any from anywhere else, only MN.

I have tried the CAB about 20 times this morning, it rings and then a pre recorded message comes on and says all advisers are busy, please call back later.

Shall I forget about CAB? Shall I try ACAS or carry on corresponding with HR myself?

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RibenaBerry · 29/08/2007 12:58

Have you thought about seeing a lawyer? Some will do a free first interview. They might also be able to give you a fixed price for a first letter or no-win no-fee. If you can get a first meeting free, it should be worth a shot. Look for places that advertise free first meetings and employment law specialists.

flowerybeanbag · 29/08/2007 19:48

You could try Acas but they won't be able to help you with your specific case I don't think, they will give general advice but won't go into specifics or anything like that.
You can carry on trying the CAB, but it sounds as though they might be more stress than it's worth.
Or you can email your HR dept the link I sent you, then just leave it there, not entering into any further correspondence, wait for their reaction and if you are not offered the post we can take it from there and do you a claim form, it would be very straightforward for something like this.
Or you can try and find a solicitor to do you a free consultation as Ribena says, don't know what is available near you but it might be worth a shot.

Please don't panic you are not on your own, you clearly have the law very much on your side, and we will help you all the way.

flowerybeanbag · 30/08/2007 15:56

Daisy my email address is flowery dot beanbag @ ntlworld dot com
Do use it if you need to, see what the outcome is of what you have done so far, and then lets take it from there.

Daisypops · 30/08/2007 18:44

Thanks FBB. I gave up on the CAB. I've decided not to waste anymore of my time on this until they come back to me. The interviews for my level were meant to be this week, but it appears that they've gone out of the window.

I will see what they come back with and take it from there. Maybe if they speak to their legal team they will be put straight?!

The positions they have said I can apply for are a lower level and less money but they have said they will 'compensate' by giving me £1500 for the 1st two years. I still don't think that will take the new salary up to what I was on before. Is this allowed?

Thanks again for taking the time to post and been so helpful.

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flowerybeanbag · 31/08/2007 10:14

Daisy yes they can have new posts at a different salary etc. I am assuming there will have been some kind of job evaluation exercise against whatever banding or grading system you have, and if the content of the new jobs means that a slightly slower salary is justified, that is fine, and it is common to offer some kind of financial 'compensation' as you have described in the situation like you are in where effectively the people taking the new jobs will have been doing jobs on a higher salary previously.
I'm sure it's just a matter of time before your HR are put straight by getting some legal advice, they have been slow about getting it and getting confused I would say, and not been particularly efficient or helpful in dealing with you, but it is only a matter of time before they are put straight and with any luck they are taking suitable advice at the moment which is why the whole process is up in the air.

Daisypops · 05/09/2007 10:13

Still not heard anything. Is there anything I can do to speed them up. Its ridiculous.

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