Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Work

Chat with other users about all things related to working life on our Work forum.

Flexible working appeal hearing next week - any advice please?

19 replies

RoseParade · 20/07/2007 20:40

I recently applied for reduced hours (3 days a week) and the company refused. I've written my appeal letter offering counter-arguments for their reasons for refusing my application and I now have an appeal hearing next week.

I just wondered if anyone who has been through this has any tips?

The big big cheese (based in the US, I'm in UK) has apparently said in the past that "he doesn't agree with part time account managers" and I think the reasons work have come up with to refuse my application are just excuses to enable him to continue with his narrow minded approach to the business, but obviously I can't say this to the managers I am meeting! I really want to persuade them this is workable but I feel defeated before I even start....

OP posts:
CrookshanksinJimmyChoos · 20/07/2007 20:43

Had exactly the same prob - I got the union involved in the end - are you a member of a union or going it alone?

RoseParade · 20/07/2007 20:50

I'm in sales in a a very specialised industry so not in a union; think I am going to take a colleague in with me though as a calming influence, as I can see myself losing my rag and ranting about how short sited they all are!

OP posts:
RoseParade · 20/07/2007 20:51

sorry, meant short-sighted - typing while feeding and brain not really engaged....

OP posts:
flowerybeanbag · 20/07/2007 21:53

definitely try not to lose rag if possible!
Best thing to do, as I am sure you have in your written appeal, is to address each of their business concerns about your application in turn, either outlining how it is not actually a problem, or preferably how you will address each concern so that there is no problem.
Explain as much as you can how your application being accepted will be good for the business - always good to focus on how the business will benefit, not just yourself.
So if you can, think of any reasons why having part time account managers would be good for the business. Off the top of my head, it would enable them to recruit/retain talent from a wider pool of candidates who cannot work full time, allowing them to benefit from being able to recruit the absolute best rather than just the best who are available full time.
Also working part time enables you to have a good work-life balance therefore improving your performance at work as you are not so tired/worrying about homelife, a more rounded person, etc
Sure there are more but need to go to bed brain not working!
Good luck

CrookshanksinJimmyChoos · 20/07/2007 21:53

I see...good idea to take someone in with you though. Take a wander over to the Going Back to Work Threads and the legal stuff threads - my stuff is in there - under my old names of Nikki76/NikkiBFG and PussinJimmyChoos, plus lots of advice from other mnetters that would hopefully be useful to you

Best of luck!

chocolatekimmy · 20/07/2007 21:55

Taking a colleague will be good as you can discuss progress and tactics during an adjournment and its back up for the future. Get him/her to take some notes during the meeting too.

Best you can do is give your arguments. Can you tell me what the grounds were for refusal - has to be one of eight that are within the guidelines like burden of additional cost or insufficient work during the periods the person wants to work.

Also, even if it is a listed reason, does it ring true and can they justify it?

RoseParade · 21/07/2007 09:24

Thanks ever so much everyone for your comments so far.

Here's a little bit more background.

A colleague was refused flexible working last year and subsequently left the company. The reasons they have given me are very similar to the ones they gave her even though we are responsible for different (although related) product lines. They just seem to not want to have to think about doing things a little differently.

During my maternity leave they have employed someone to do telesales on a part time basis to cover my area. I suggested they retain this position enabling me to return part-time. Their reason for turning this down was "there is no budget for a part-time internal sales person in 2008". I've addressed this by pointing out that they can use the money they'll be saving from my reduction of hours to cover the part-time post AND that they might actually save money overall as telesales people are generally paid less than field sales people.

The two other reasons for turning me down are cut and pasted here:
? If a part-time role was granted, ?competitors? would have access to the rest of the time, reducing the Company?s need to develop and maintain future sales. (The appalling grammar and resulting nonsense is exactly as written by HR!!!! I can really see the company having less need to sell product )
? The Company is committed to organically growing the (....) business for 2007 and 2008, there fore requiring all available resources to develop new business opportunities, and to continue it?s programme of launching new products to give competitive edge. This role is pivotal to this strategy, and requires full time attention in order to maintain awareness of the customer demand.

fbb, the recruitment point is one I haven't used yet so I'll definately be adding that

Sorry it's all getting a bit long winded now, all comments welcome as the ones so far have given me some more ideas, thanks again everyone.

OP posts:
flowerybeanbag · 21/07/2007 09:37

hmm that sounds a bit rubbish to me - how can they say that you have to be full time to maintain awareness of customer demand you can certainly explain how you could do that p/t.
And if they've had a p/t time person covering your area while you were off, v difficult to give a justifiable business reason why that would not work on your return!

And if they are really worried about competitors 'having access to the rest of the time' they could recruit another part timer to cover extra hours. But as you say having you p/t would save money. Either way they win I would say!
Does sound like they just don't want to move into the 21st century and think a bit more flexibly about how they allow people to work, and they do have to so important you challenge it as you are doing.
The fact that a colleague left because of it illustrates how they will lose talent if they continue with their inflexible attitude - put that in!

RoseParade · 21/07/2007 09:53

Thanks fbb, you are writing down all the things that I've been thinking (with some extra very good points thrown in)which is great.
You know at one stage when I was staring incredulously at their refusal letter I wondered if their reasons were actually perfectly reasonable and it was just me, living in some slightly alternative reality or something, who thought they were weak and rubbish.

OP posts:
flowerybeanbag · 21/07/2007 10:11

no, you're definitely not in an alternative reality - they will often phrase reasons in a very 'businessy' type language, so they sound more 'reasonable'; and people might think 'oh fair enough' but once you actually look at them they are weak and rubbish as you say, and should be challenged.
Sometimes you just need someone else to say what you are thinking to give you confidence that you are right don't you?

RoseParade · 21/07/2007 10:20

Yes, absolutely
Must just guard against waltzing in to the meeting shouting "I am so right and you know it you bastards."

OP posts:
Coriander73 · 21/07/2007 10:26

I have just been through the same process myself. I applied for flexible working, they said no, I appealed, they said no. I have since resigned & have now sent them a employment tribunal claim for constructive dismissal. I was also in sales, working in a specialised "baby" industry travelling abroad earning a good salary blah blah blah. Now, I am a SAHM thinking of re-training into teaching. Still feel bitter esp.as they have allowed another colleague to do 3 days a week - albeit to be reviewed in Sep but nevertheless agrieved that it was allowed for her. Anyhow....

GOOD LUCK!

RoseParade · 21/07/2007 10:40

I think I was reading the thread about your fight for flex. working Coriander - it actually helped me focus my strategy.
Sorry your company is stuck in the dark ages. It's unbelievable that a company in the "baby" market could be so blinkered.... I may be here asking about the next step after my meeting if they still say no, hope everything goes well with the tribunal for you.

OP posts:
flowerybeanbag · 21/07/2007 11:09

lol @ 'I am so right you bastards'

RibenaBerry · 22/07/2007 20:38

RoseParade,

A couple of suggestions. The big one is to put the ball in their court. Make the point that you would like to hear FROM THEM any suggestions for a role other than a full time field sales role that would work. If they es full time attention in order to maintcan't come up with a single example, it strengthens your argument that their minds were closed to the idea. If they come up with ideas (e.g. part time, but with some working hours every day of the week), you know what you're working with. The key in all of this is to sound dead helpful, whilst backing them into a corner. If you can throw in lots of questions ("would it be different if it was four days?" "would it be different if I also X, Y and Z) it makes it difficult.

One little recognised part of flexible working requests is that they do not have to offer alternatives other than what you've asked for (e.g. if you ask for three days, they don't have to offer four, even if they would accept it). You have to actively make their life difficult on that point.

They said "this role is pivotal to this strategy, and requires full time attention to maintain awareness of the customer demand." Confirm your commitment to maintaining awareness. Ask what developments they think would develop on the days in which you are not in the office so that you could think about ways to overcome it. Ask if there are agreed steps that you could take on your days off to maintain awareness if things are really so fast paced that it would cause trouble (e.g. do you need to check your emails first thing and at US start of business) Suggestions like that show how determined you are to maintain customer standards and take the wind out of their sales a bit.

Oh, and ask them WHY everything they say. Frame this as wanting to proactively address their issues and think outside the box to resolve them (puke at business jargon discretely). Sounds dead helpful. Makes their life a nightmare. Like WHY they believe that having a window when you are not selling would result in competitors getting the business. Surely (unless your business is particularly niche and time critical) if you lose business it is not because you can't do meetings on a Monday? Are there underlying issues about customer loyalty and satisfaction that should be resolved as a separate process?

Finally, I personally would throw in the fact that you have heard that the US manager does not agree with part time work. I would frame it as "I have heard rumours that X does not want part timers on his team. I really hope that that is not true and I think that I can be the person to prove to him that I can make it work. If you would like me to talk to X about his concerns directly, I would be really happy to do so." If they are doing this because X told them too, they will s* themselves at that. Also, if you do need to take action later, you've teed up your case. obviously, personal choice whether you go down that route though.

RoseParade · 22/07/2007 22:35

Wow RibenaBerry, thank you so much for taking the time to write that long e-mail for me. It's really helpful to get other people's views. If you don't mind me asking, have you been through a similar process or do you work in this field? It's just that it sounds like you know this situation inside out.

I shall be making notes of all the questions I need to ask and will be definitely asking about 4-day working patterns, reduced hours but everyday attendance (I live within 20 minutes drive of my biggest accounts so that is something they'd probably have trouble arguing against). I'll also be plucking up the courage to mention the anti-part-time-working rumour (gulp!), but I'll do this at the end and I need to try and rehearse a non-confrontational way of doing it. If they call my bluff I'll have to drink a bottle of wine before actually carrying out the phonecall though.......

OP posts:
RibenaBerry · 23/07/2007 16:59

I can't say too much but, yes, I have worked in the HR field. Never had to go through the process myself, but I have talked some reluctant managers through ways of thinking about an employee's request properly!

Sorry for some iffy typing in that first response. I have just looked back at it. Hopefully you understood enough!

If the manager really doesn't like part timers, there's a really low risk that they'll call your bluff and put you on the phone to him. They'll be too scared that he will say something stupid!

flowerybeanbag · 23/07/2007 17:41

ooh, roseparade this is handy!

RoseParade · 30/07/2007 11:06

Just a quick update for those interested;
the meeting was pretty much a stalemate from the word go. I kept asking for explanations for their refusal reasons and boss kept giving answers totally unrelated to the questions , have decided boss needs a career change and should become a politician! I think I said "but why" more times in one hour than any 5 year old has ever managed (but I didn't lose my rag or call the bosses rude names!)
The colleague I took with me was very helpful, explaining my points from a different viewpoint, but neither of us felt we came away from the meeting with any concrete reasons for the refusal.
Anyway, I'm not holding out much hope for reduced hours, but I'm still entitled to my AML period and am determined to enjoy time with ds rather than worrying too much about work. I'll post an update when I get the final decision.
Thanks again everyone for your help

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page