Disciplinary hearing.

[Esmeralda67]

I have worked in the NHS in different clinical roles for almost 30 years. Had promotions and no issues from clinical or behaviour point of view in that time. Clean record. Last year I made a serious mistake and a patient could hve died as a consequence. I recognised what I had done and accepted an investigation was necessary. However I have been repeatedly told that I now could face a summary dismissal for gross misconduct and I don't know how to go on. I fully accepted my mistake and feel destroyed by the whole process. Not one person in the organisation has offered any support and the stress and anxiety is killing me. I have my hearing soon and I honestly feel suicidal at the prospect. I have lost my career my good name and risk losing my income. I have support from friends but feel so isolated and ashamed.

Fair enough I was wrong about that one.

Totally agree Highway. I have a good amount of frontline experience. Don’t do a huge amount of proper frontline stuff (although ‘officially’ I am probably classed as frontline). Mainly for the reasons described on this thread. Conditions are dangerous and support from management and public is often minimal.

I wouldn’t presume to be able to judge in such situations as I am simply not at the coal face. Management often thinks that people working in my field are appropriate to judge though.

You have probably done this already but it may help to write down everything about the incident and your feelings and experiences. It can help in coming to terms with the fact that it has happened, and beginning to move on. I think you need to decide what your ideal outcome of the situation/hearing would be, for example returning to work at the same level but in a different department, or returning to work in a lesser role. Talk to your union rep about it so that they can argue for that in the hearing. It may help to write down what you want to say in the hearing, clearly you have admitted your mistake and apologised but the outcome was not disastrous, you have obviously learned from what happened, and want to return to work, perhaps with a phased return given you have been off with stress (OH should advise on this). It is easier said than done but focusing on what you would like out of the hearing rather than panicking may help. It does not mean that you will not be sacked of course but should at least get other options considered.

A complex investigation involving patient harm would take a minimum of 4 months to complete. More like 6-7 in reality.

Esmer I feel so very deeply for you that this has happened and that you are abandoned by the support system.
Because there before the grace go the rest of us in similar circumstances.
This could absolutely completely happen to any of us.
I know that even with 30 years total dedication to the nhs it means absolutely nothing nowadays and you/we will be thrown under the bus in the blink of an eye.
I also get what you say about not being able to go back to your job even if this is resolved due to high levels of anxiety and zero confidence in yourself. It’s like a huge black cloud that will be over you forever.
I would feel exactly the same, even down to suicidal thoughts because of it. It is devastating.
But small things like surrounding yourself with positive and helpful people is a way forward.
There’s some cracking advice on here about who could help, get them all on board because then you are not alone and you have solid ground to move forward.
Big decisions will need to be made in the future but for now my friend you just need to survive this bit.
I just wanted to say something nice but don’t know what to say except I get it xxxx

You could start a thread in a quiet place to get some support. I'd like to support you.

Thank you all or such kindness at this bleak time. Slidingdoors I just can't help but see that your lack of experience and knowledge about acute services combined with your power over the careers of other people underline what is wrong with the disciplinary service. It is very rare for an individual to do harm deliberately. Where harm happens it is rarely a person working in isolation. Staff are the single greatest resource in the NHS and to treat resources with such lack of regard is frankly wasteful. The root causes should be addressed instead of primarily focusing on an individual unless there is actual intention to do harm.

I’m very sorry you’re going through this, OP. I’m so glad to be out of the health service now. I Would advise against giving too much information via PMs, as you have no idea who you’re talking to. I’m sure there are many genuine posters, but unfortunately we can’t be certain who they are. 💐

Slidingdoors I just can't help but see that your lack of experience and knowledge about acute services combined with your power over the careers of other people underline what is wrong with the disciplinary service.

I've read the whole thread and I 100% agree with this. I also note that sliding says that her trust has a problem with lack of staff turnover, and that dismissed staff immediately move onto roles elsewhere. Which suggests that the disciplinary process is being used cynically to get rid of people who can't legally be dismissed in any another way.

I do think that the NHS can learn from other sectors but not by importing the worst and most cynical practices such as those described by sliding.

Still no lessons learnt from the Bawa-Garba case, I am unsurprised to learn.

Wishing you all the best OP, you sound like a good and competent doctor. I'd far rather be treated by someone who admits to mistakes than someone who doesn't (all doctors who have practiced for any length of time have made mistakes; some of them just haven't been caught or haven't admitted to them). If you can afford it, lawyer up ...

Wow, such a lack of basic kindness and empathy here from so many posters. The OP is clearly devastated. She’s never once said she’s not responsible for her mistake nor said she wont take the consequences. We all make mistakes at work. I suppose most of us are just lucky that our mistakes don’t have the same possible consequences as they do in healthcare and medicine. Added to this an NHS at breaking point and happy to just accept scapegoats to cover up for failings in the system it just sounds awful.

Jesus after several night shifts and personal problems I doubt I could decide whether I wanted sugar in my tea or not far less life and death decisions.

I hope you’re taking something from the support here for you OP x

I'm not sure what's going to happen with your case but if I were you I'll cling on to the knowledge that the patient recovered. You know what you did wrong and I'll stick to that.
I'll say that you learned from the painful experience and for that you could be a better practitioner.
Maybe being at home it's making things worse as you aren't getting a break from your thoughts.
We all make mistakes and your mistake fortunately didn't end in tragedy. I know it could have but didn't hold on to that. Life goes on for you and the patient.
May feel like the end but it isn't just an awful bump in the road.
What will be will be but don't go to your hearing looking like a broken person. Find strength and show that you aren't one mistake you have 30 years of great work.
Nobody died and I think you'll be even better in the future if you rise from this. More human and companionate.

MoreSlidingDoors your approach seems in direct contrast to the HSIB who are clear that most harm in healthcare is related to systems and processes and very rarely due to an individuals actions. I sincerely hope you were involved with nursing disciplinaries before your current job, as being involved in several dismissals in a small trust in less than 2 years would be astonishing. It also seems that despite your confidence they were unfit to practice according to the NMC code, the NMC hasn’t agreed as they have remained on the register.

It also seems that despite your confidence they were unfit to practice according to the NMC code, the NMC hasn’t agreed as they have remained on the register.

The NMC is absolutely clear that the employer is not the decision maker when it comes to whether the NMC code has been broken and whether registration should be revoked. The individuals were dismissed as their behaviour contradicted what the trust expects of its staff - we cannot have nurses who are unsafe around medicines and have proven so within weeks of compete retraining for example. As a small trust there are limits on redeployment - all of our nurses are involved with meds. The RCN put up no defence. The individual was not prepared to take a lower graded non-nursing role.

You’re getting snapshots of lots of different stories here. So please don’t assume to know everything.

There was also an absolute breach of trust and confidence which affected the employment relationship.

I’ve been at several hearings where nurses are dismissed for misconduct or negligence - they all have mitigating circumstances but the nursing code is clear that they should not practice if unfit to do so. Sadly this means they often face dismissal

Of course the employer isn’t the decision maker about revoking registration, I am well aware of that. But given what you said above and that you also decided these nurses are unsafe around medication presumably you referred them on to the NMC?

Who keeps telling you that you could face dismissal? your Rep needs to ask why this has gone to a disciplinary. have you been sent all the documents, disciplinary procedures, witness statements? would it help you if you wrote a reflective summary of what you remember, what you would have done differently if this occured again. maybe it all depends on the reason you made the error, like you say it's rarely one persons "fault" and can often be a series of events that lead to an error being made. if it goes ok and you still want to remain in the profession would you consider down grading yourself, being in charge can be very challenging and stressful and many nurses voluntarily down grade as it's too much sometimes (or go into management when they no longer have to make clinical decisions!). take care of yourself.

Good work. And the rest of this group of several nurses whose dismissal you’ve overseen because they were unfit to practice? The NMC has been happy with all of them as well?

I think sliding has to be a wind up merchant. Says she works at a small trust, gives lots of potentially identifying details about disciplinaries onsocial media? Can't believe that a HR professional would risk that - or maybe she just isn't very professional.

I hope she is a wind up merchant but I fear she isn’t. Even if she is, her attitude is absolutely normal in my experience of people who investigate these things and the public’s attitude is much worse.

She may or may not be a wind up merchant but it is all too common in the social care sector at least to bring in people from other sectors who know nothing about the sector they are working in and let them manage front line workers in some capacity. Because of the the idea of 'fresh perspective' and the bizarre idea that they somehow will be better at doing things.

I've known people be suspended on full pay for years in the NHS while the investigations are ongoing and that didn't endanger patients at all - someone suspected of gross misconduct would usually come under the criteria for suspension although not all misconduct would by any means, just gross misconduct.

Hope you are doing OK OP, if you are not suspended that's a good sign in my book.

Yeah, but disclosing potentially actionable details on social media? Especially as she more or less admitted to using disciplinaries because the trust can't get staff to move on otherwise! If it's a small trust maybe someone can work out which one.

Especially as she more or less admitted to using disciplinaries because the trust can't get staff to move on otherwise!

Woah! No I didn’t!