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Original poster

Not chd related - is this discrimination? Please, help

49 replies

Electroma · 19/06/2007 00:32

I have worked in the same pub for 2 years, and it was bought over by new private owners 3 weeks ago. They kept me on, as i had been there so long I believe they had to.

Today, I was told by the new boss at my work that I have to dress differently.

The uniform shirts provided are the same on all 3 of the women at my work, and we all button them up to the second top button.
Today I was told that I have to button an extra one up as it is innapropriate that men are looking at me.
Its a pub! I am used to it.
The other girls have much smaller chests than me.

It was so embarrasing to be told this. they made me feel horrible. I dress nicely, i wear a smart black skirt, with black tights (thick ones) and flat shoes. I wear a black vest underneath my shirt for extra 'breast coverage', and feel more comfortable with the button done to the chest, rather than the neck.

Is this discrimination? I dont think it is fair, and believe they are trying to get rid of me as I came as part of the sale as it were, when they bought the pub.

Can anyone help?

OP posts:
Original poster
Electroma · 19/06/2007 01:04

I cant take them to a tribunal for asking me to do a button!

I am just asking what everyone else thinks, as i think it is not fair to single one girl out because she has larger breasts.

OP posts:
HouseGuestofCaptainDippy · 19/06/2007 01:06

but that's not what they're doing. you are showing more than the others, if one of them had an extra button undone and showed more they would be asked to do it up. they can't help having smaller boobs jst as you can't help yours being bigger.

if you were overweight and your stomach was on show i would expect them to provde a better fitting shirt tbh.

harpsichordcuddler · 19/06/2007 01:07

no it isn't just contractual though. it is a statutory duty.
actually.

Original poster
Electroma · 19/06/2007 01:07

well, i coulf put on a bigger shirt but it looked stupid - like a big tent!

My boobs are really quite big, and do stretch the shirt slightly on the chest area. But they are not 'popping out'!!

OP posts:
Original poster
Electroma · 19/06/2007 01:10

The thing is, its not that kind of pub!!
Its not rough, but its not exactly posh either!

In the time i have been there, 2 years, noone, staff, customers, boss, friends, noone has ever even so much as hinted that its any kind of problem

Thants why i think I may be being 'forced out', construvtive dismissal possibly.I am pretty sure they dont want the 'carried over' staff there. They have already cut our shifts and been very difficult with me about the fact that i leave early ONE day a week to collect my son.

OP posts:
harpsichordcuddler · 19/06/2007 01:16

Electroma - yoiu do have quite a lot of protection as a transferred member of staff.
stand your ground and try and stay calm. it is annoying though, I can understand that

Original poster
Electroma · 19/06/2007 01:20

Thank you harpsichord. I am finding the transition hard, and they have made a lot of demands of us, a lot of changes.

I just felt this was rude and unnecessary.

OP posts:
squiffy · 19/06/2007 10:02

????

"The 'leering men' as it were, are nice, friendly pubgoers. ... Its a pub. That behaviour is to be expected!!"

"the comments that some men make doesnt bother me in the slightest! i've been doing bar work for 8 years and I dont mind!"

"I also get comments about my long legs, or that i am pretty"

"Surely if men in a PUB are looking at the good looking barmaid, thats a good thing for a landlord?"

And asking you to cover up has made you feel "embarassed"?

You are priceless, Electroma. It isn't discrimination and you probably will lose your job if your attitude doesn't switch quick. Stop thinking of yourself for a minute and starting thinking how much work those new owners have got on their hands building up a business, bringing in new customers and so on. Try to support them and maybe they'll think you are more than just trouble. If this were my local and it had locals joking with the barmaid about her tits I wouldn't come within a mile of it, and I guess the new owners think that is true of many people who might otherwise start to come in and so help them build up the business. If you stand your ground I guarantee you will get a formal written warning before the month is out.

Be gracious and do as they ask and don't give them a reason to get rid of you. You may not like it and you may not like being told to do it, but believe me that is better advice than any of the supportive posts have given you.

DominiConnor · 19/06/2007 10:08

I suspect, if pushed they'd go back to the old standby of "health and safety", which trumps discrimination.
Fights do happen in pubs, and the management have a duty to try and stop them happening.

DominiConnor · 19/06/2007 10:54

Just to clarify my position here.
I am all for permanent removal of paedos from society. To me, harsh punishments require strong evidence.
I'm all for strengthening the policing of the web, with proper IT experts.

DominiConnor · 19/06/2007 10:56

oops, sorry finger trouble, wrong topic.

BetsyBoop · 19/06/2007 11:54

I'm sorry I can't believe someone making such a fuss about one bloody button.

Do it up & support your employers and help them grow the business in the direction they want to take it and they will be more than happy to keep you on.

Or if you aren't going to support them, and are really going to kick up a stink about one button, start looking for another job....

the choice is yours

cleaninglady · 19/06/2007 12:08

It must be hard trying to adapt to new employers and it does seem a bit silly but maybe they are trying to "protect" you? By asking you to button up you probably wont get as much leering and they may want to update the pub image and clientele as well as making sure you dont feel uncomfortable as they dont know that you actually dont mind. If they were asking you to undo another button to enable the leering then that would be discrimination

Original poster
Electroma · 19/06/2007 12:27

Er.. okay i see your points there.

The fact is - standing next to the other two girls in the pub, who both have their buttons done to a trendy, young, reasonable fastening place (sorry i am finding this hard to put across..) whilst I am standing buttoned up to the neck, as if i should be wearing a tie, i look stupid. People have already laughed at me and asked me what i am doing.

I dont need protected! I am more than capable of handling the occasional comments that get thrown my way. the other two girls are both very pretty, and get equal amounts of comments. One has very nice, long legs and gets more comments about those. Why is that not a problem? They havent asked her to cover up with trousers?

Yes squiffy - i felt embarrassed. I now look foolish buttoned up to the neck, and i felt singled out as it was only said to me. Had they sat us all downn and siad 'we'd like you all to button up to here' that would be a different thing. It was only me.

Also - the area this pub is in there arw about 8 pubs and they are all the same - the bar staff and the punters get on well. there is chat, and banter. Its part of the job. If you didnt like it, you'd drink or work elsewhere. Its to be expected in small town pubs.

OP posts:
Original poster
Electroma · 19/06/2007 12:46

I just dont like to be the only one singled out.

It seems like i am being picked on?

OP posts:
cleaninglady · 19/06/2007 12:53

firstly amusing comment re:
"buttons done to a trendy, young, reasonable fastening place " i want a trendy, young, reasonably fastening place!
but re-reading some of the posts it does seem a bit unfair that its only you - have you actually asked them why? is it because of your larger "assets" ?
can you get a vest top that covers up a bit more and then leave the buttoning to the trendy, young, fastening place......

Original poster
Electroma · 19/06/2007 12:58

i know.. i dont know how to put it!!

the thing is - i DO wear a vest top underneath!

we are all in our early 20's, and i am buttoned up as if i am in my 50's. Seriously, i dont know how else to put it..

(please no offence to the over 50's! )

OP posts:
RibenaBerry · 19/06/2007 14:31

I think I have a couple of comments which might help:

  1. When people buy a business, they are required to take on existing staff. It is a requirement under legislation called TUPE. Therefore, to fire you now, it would be just like firing someone normally (who had at least a year's service). They would need a legally fair reason. I won't comment on whether it would be a good enough reason, because I think you've heard both sides of the debate below.

  2. It is not discrimination. People often think that discrimination is treating one person differently from another. It isn't I'm afraid. It is treating people differently on grounds of their sex, race, religion, age, disability or sexual orientation. Physical appearance is not covered. That means that, if they feel that you were 'showing too much' (not to say you were) then, for it to be discrimination you would need to show that you were being treated differently to other people for one of those reasons. It could be harassment, but it does not sound like it was done in a leering or pervy way, so probably not.

Hope that helps. Some good news and some bad news...

DominiConnor · 19/06/2007 16:55

Of course "trendy young fastening place" is age discrimination.

RibenaBerry · 19/06/2007 16:58

Only if they're making her button up because she's older or younger than the others. You're not younger and sexier than the others are you Electroma?

Judy1234 · 19/06/2007 17:30

I agree with the posts below - it's fine. When I read the title I thought you were about to say they're making us all move from trousers to short skirts and low cut tops.... But more seriously they can specify what uniform they like within reason.

Original poster
Electroma · 19/06/2007 23:21

Thank you all so much for your help.

I have decided on the best course of action, along with some other colleagues.

We have decided to document all the goings on - but do as they say. I am NOT going to button up to the top, but rather wear a t-shirt underneath. They cannot feasibly complain if the t-shirt is the same colour. The other girls often wear different coloured t-shirts underneath, but to give them no griunds for complaint, i will stick to black.

thanks to all for your help.

Ribena - no, unfortunately not younger and sexier than the other girls! I'm the oldest as it happens!

OP posts:
madamez · 19/06/2007 23:36

Hmm, some rather harsh responses here. Ok, the matter of a single button does sound a bit silly and trivial, but I get the slight impression from the OP that it's part of sustained niggling at her and picking on her over various things, and the button thing feels like the final straw.
If this is the case, Electroma, then do keep a diary of events - but do start looking for another job as this sort of thing can be pretty miserable. And if there is a sustained pattern of singling you out for criticism over things like leaving early to collect your LO or other matters that aren't to do with your actual performance being unsatisfactory, then it could be constructive dismissal.
After all if you have worked there for several years then it's not that likely that you're bad at your job.

Judy1234 · 20/06/2007 08:04

Yes, depends on the rest but remember they could issue a uniform legally couldn't they? So that might well not be a T shirt under a shirt and that we would all accept is lawful. Even the men in benefit offices forced to wear ties I think lost their case.

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