NHS HCP- can 'they' make you work 13 hour (day) shifts? <long alert!>

[Miljah]

To date, the longest shift in the currently Mo-Fri area has been 10.45 day-time hours with a (not really) guaranteed 45 minute lunch break.

The FT staff work 4 days a week, 3 days of 9.45 hours (8am to 5.45pm) with a 30 minute (not guaranteed!)break; one of 10.45 hours (7am to 5.45pm). This makes up their 37.5 hours per week.

The staff also provide a 1:7 on-call commitment. 5.45pm til 8am, Mo-Fri, and 8am-8am (24 hours) Sat or Sun, and you usually get called at least once in the evenings, and can be in for hours on the weekend!

There is voluntary O/T available 8.00-16.00 Sat or Sunday at locally negotiated rates. Most people do one day every 3 weeks. This is slightly neither here nor there, except 'management' really want us to work these!

A new Boss has arrived who wants to impose 13 hour day shifts on the team (so, effectively, full hours (37.5) worked in 3 days, including Sat and Sun, and repeat!).

Unfortunately others in our 'trade' are prepared to do these long shifts, especially in the NHS contracted private companies.

The private companies tend to employ young blokes (no family to consider); EU staff over to make as much cash as possible in as short a time as possible; overseas trained people who may have a different style of work-ethic to us (I'm not going to pussy-foot around; I mean, for example, SE Asians who work 3 jobs to keep their child at a top public school, commendable tho such commitment is, a child they more or less never see).

Rota'ing us three 13 hour shifts a week would be GREAT for the 9-5 managers who are pushing this.

I think doing so more or less excludes the primary carer of children- how many child care facilities provide 13 hours' cover?? And how dependent is the NHS on middle-aged women? Who'd be on their knees on a 13 hours shift, patient after patient, manual handling after manual handling (they can do 36 lateral transfers in a 9-5 day!)- And why would you even work that? I also think they're not giving the 36th patient the same care and attention as their 3rd.

Anyway, legally- what are the rules about how many 13 hour shifts you can rota in a given period? Is it averaged over 17 weeks or something?

Can you refuse, given that you'll have no childcare?

I 'get' that others do night shifts of longer, I really do (and, in a show of oneupmanship, in my first job in this trade, 35 years ago, your 1:10 night duty was 27.5 hours long!! However, there was no 4 hour target in ED, so at midnight, you'd tell ED if you wanted to be disturbed for the cash, or left alone and get up at 6.30am to deal with the now-sobered-up drunks from the night... ...)...

Welcome to the shape of your future NHS!

You've lost me when you described the 'type' of staff that are willing to work these shifts

12.5hr shifts are standard across many NHS Trusts, although many often allow standard 7.5 hour shifts for those who want to maintain them.

I didn't mean to 'lose' you in a description of who are prepared to work these shifts.

They tend to be young, uncommitted people, who don't need to factor anyone else into their lives, like I was as a newly qualified. They tend to be people who have prioritised making money fast, in the knowledge that it's short term. Like, when I was newly qualified, loads of us went to The Gulf. Some are SE Asians who are prepared to do what they feel it takes to give their DC the best possible chance in life, via top-flight Public School education, thus they work all hours.

This isn't racist. This is a statement of what people might choose, or feel no option other than to accept these terms and conditions.

But please bear all this in mind when you, or your mum, are Patient 36, and given short shrift as the staff are exhausted (but, on paper, targets have been met).

I think you’ve misunderstood Lougle. Not sure she needed it explaining again.

12/13 hr shifts are fairly standard aren’t they? You’ve been quite lucky to have the longest as 10 tbh.

I'm an NHS worker, I'm very familiar with the workings of the NHS and have no need to bear in mind when me, or my Mum, are patient 36. I've worked in nursing homes, wards, interventional radiology, theatres A&E overflow units, and critical care. I've worked short shifts, long shifts, night shifts, on-calls, lates that turned into on-calls that just kept coming.... I get the reality of shift work.

I'm saying that most Trusts have moved to 12.5 he shifts. Ultimately, as long as they hold a consultation process, yes they will be able to force it through, or they will be able to terminate contracts and rehire on the new terms and conditions if people refuse, as long as they can state a business case, and they will be able to, because NHS budgets are ever shrinking and 12.5 HR shifts are more efficient in terms of budgets, because there are less overlap points between shifts and there is greater continuity of care, plus they can extend the definition of 'core hours' and reduce the out of hours payments.

I'm not saying it's necessarily something you have to be happy about, but your question was whether they can make you, and I think the answer is ultimately going to be 'probably'.

Is this a Monday to Friday service only or open at weekends too, that confused me a bit. Some people prefer long days, you could work m,t,we, then be off for 8 days till f,s,s, the following week. I don't agree that it is certain types of people who like them, they don't suit everyone so if someone has carer needs, childcare needs or health reasons then managers can work around this. Some people without any commitments prefer shorter shifts as they like the company and preferworking every day to stop feeling bored or lonely.

Other than having a rant, was there a point to the post? It seems that you aren't really happy in your work, so perhaps a career change is called for.

There is no point, thats why we have unions to sort this stuff out.

A graph demonstrating the age make-up of nurses and midwives in the NHS.

Unfortunately, Lucy, over the past 2 years, 15% of my department have decided on that 'career change', being over 50 and exhausted by 8-10 hour day-shifts. Which is why they cannot staff weekends except by overtime- because they just do not have the cash to replace them and, perhaps more crucially, no properly qualified people are applying for the jobs.

There are currently another 9-11% of staff over 50 who will be affected by extended working hours.

From 'The Nuffield Trust', Oct '17 : "Both the nursing and midwifery professions have an ageing demographic (see chart). More than half of nurses are older than 45, with a third aged between 45 and 54 and 13.6 per cent between 55 and 64. In midwifery the position is even starker, with a third of midwives already over 50 and eligible to consider retirement at 55. The Royal College of Midwives estimates there is a 3,500 shortfall in the midwifery workforce in England.[6]

However, pressures are not limited to older age groups: the net reduction includes a growing number in their mid-forties. Apart from retirement, the most common reasons for leaving the register were dissatisfaction with working conditions and an inability to deliver care of the right standard".

So, how efficient is it to impose 12-13 hour day shifts on your staff if it causes many to walk out?

I am in my late 50s. I can afford to leave the NHS and go private (which is what just about all of my other colleagues have done). Every one of them would still be working for the NHS, those who didn't retire, if the terms and conditions weren't deteriorating.

The 'business model' might stand up, but the human costs to both staff and patients also stacks up. I just don't understand this 'race to the bottom'.

and finally a university study on the effects of long shifts on absenteeism

If they want to change the hours or working conditions there should be a consultation period with the manager, union and h.r, has anyone actually told you that you must work long days, have there been any meetings about it and do you know if you can just stay on shorter shifts. I've never worked anywhere where everyone works just long days or just short shifts, it always seems to be a mixture of both. If you are in a union they may be able to advise you on your rights.

Thanks, hokey. There was a 'consultation' but it was a bit shambolic; the HR manager and our dept manager sat side by side, shared in jokes and slapped each others' knees.. 🙄 impartial, not? Two of the union reps were in 'acting up' positions which required the boss' blessing to become permanent. Thus weren't fighting very hard. And Not A Word of the original proposal changed over 4 meetings.

Now, I don't care if my 24 year old colleagues go 'Yay! A week's work in 3 days!' ( til they try and get 13 hours childcare.... down the line). I can cite Occupational Health as to why I won't be working more than my current 8 hour shifts.

But I worry about those who can't 'walk away'; the 36th patient, the decimation of NHS staffing.

An aside, I absolutely know how hard some nursing can be. But my line of work requires up to 35 three man lateral transfers in an eight hour shift, OP appointments 10 mins apart ( with many 80-plus year olds who need more time.)

Anyway, thanks for the input.

Hr is not impartial. It works for the company.

You're not wrong. Once upon a time, they interpreted employment law. However, after AfC, I was promoted (ha) into band 6. My boss told me I'd therefore be under a new contract, complete with the 37.5 hours, the extra 1.5 unpaid, which was not what I understood at all.

So I called HR who said 'What does your line manager say?'... to which I replied 'They appear to not know the detail of AfC, which is why I'm calling you'. FGS. Why have HR in the NHS? Employ admin band 2-3 to just keep the records up to date.

Fortunately the union sent me the wording that revealed that, actually, I retained my T&C as a new band 6. Which I had to take to my manager, who had to agree! I also got a colleague a substantial amount of back- pay on that basis. Thanks, HR.

Not.

We work 12.5 hr shifts as standard in our department (with 2 x 30 min breaks)

There is a range of ages, sexes, people with children, people from the UK and foreign people who work them.

We don't offer short shifts so those who want to do them need to work elsewhere.

So your department accepts the absenteeism? It's bad enough on 9-5 where I work!

How did we ever come to this? Medieval peasants worked shorter shifts than we do! My dad '33 to '07 worked jolly hard as a middle manager in a national engineering company, retiring at 57 with a lump sum that afforded 8 trips to Australia, two round the world, mum SAH: pin-money PT.

Dad never ever worked longer than 8.30-5.30. Ever. Never weekends, never nights.

How have we reached a point where 'suck it up' is the response to the idea that 13 hour, appointments every 15 mins HCPS shifts aren't a great idea for anyone??

Miljah. Great rant. I don't disagree with you. I return to, was there a point to the post? You appear to think that ranting changes something. It doesn't. You are clearly unhappy about the way the NHS is going and don't like the employer practices. So get out of it. Nobody is telling you to suck it up. But it is what it is. Our opinion on the shifts won't do a damned thing for you. Your opinion won't either. They've done it. So accept it or get out. No judgement. Just reality.

I presume you’re a radiographer?

Why have HR in the NHS?

You’re very welcome to come and shadow me for a day/week.

All our nurses work like this - middle sized acute trust. I'd assumed it was normal. Most like having 3 days on 4 days off and some work bank shifts in between to earn more money.

I started in 2008 and 12hr shifts were standard then, it’s what the majority of the staff in the ambulance service do whether in control or out on the road

I’m on the fence about 12.5 hour shifts. I remember the days of 10 days on, 1 day off, 4 days on, mix of lates and earlys with no pattern. 7 on 7 off nights. They were also exhausting and shit for childcare. And rubbish for people with long commutes (in London that was most of us). Long shifts on the other hand are exhausting and lead to no time for teaching. Shift work full stop is shite and I’m always amazed that people do it for any length of time.

We moved to 13.5hr shifts a while ago and the few staff that objected didn’t have to but we were told anyone new had no choice and basically you hadn’t to use occy health to avoid them. Sickness went through the roof and we are now back to the old system of them being entirely voluntary.

Which works well btw.

I appreciate you do not want the change, but I don't think you can represent your whole demographic. I currently work Ave 42 hours a week over between 4 and 6 days with 1 in 4 nights and 1in 4 weeks on call. With similar work load on call in a medical field. I am your demographic and I am consider a move to ECC work where I will cover 12x 13 hour shifts a month as full time so exactly what you describe because my partner is older will be retiring soon and I need to work full time, but would like to have more full days with them. In my area ECC is very, very full on covering the on call work of 35 full time equivalents you and a nurse, I know it will barely be time for a wee let alone coffee or to eat.
Lots of people of lots of different ages like these shifts for a variety of reasons.

I suspect sickness will go through the roof, tbh. It's bad enough as it is!

Anyway, the extravagant plans the (9-5) managers are trying to impose have been set back as, as predicted, several older PT workers have said 'sod this' and have resigned, and advert after advert returns no suitable candidates.

The management's response? Put everyone on the night shift rota. That should attract staff, shouldn't it?

Personally, I have also decided to leave if they try and force me onto extended days, let alone nights. It's a pity as I expected to work another maybe 5 years on my current rota, but heigh ho, their loss.