Childminder vs Nursery

[Sml]

Lil, I was just joking, because I am certainly not afraid of driving with my husband! As I just said below, I think anybody is justified in not taking a risk if they feel it's statistically too great.

Tigger - I don't say that male nurses or doctors are less good than female ones. My preference for a female doctor/nurse for myself has nothing to do with the quality of the care offered.
As for care for my children, I or someone else is always present when they go to the surgery anyway, so of course I wouldn't refuse an eye exam by a male nurse.

I really hope sml that you aren't now suggesting that little boys in general shouldn't be allowed to play unsupervised with little girls? I find that unspeakable. As far as Asian customs are concerned, I think we both know that thousands of years of Muslim traditions are not based on fear of sex abuse.

Gracie, I don't think it's a religious thing where small children are concerned - just higher standards.

www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,447064,00.html I think everyone should read it, it's entitled "there are women serving on warships - so what's wrong with men working in childcare?"

Higher standards of what? you first talked about this is in the context of child abuse. Well, its not that the muslim faith is more careful for the childs sake, it puts a high price on a girl's head or should I say maidenhead (excuse the gross pun!). Its only because the men will not tolerate marrying a girl who has already had sex, so every measure is put into place to stop that, segregation, veils etc. I do get annoyed when women have to wear a veil or chador, because men can't control themselves!!

A serious question Sml, are you and your family not tempted to live permanently in your husband's native Algeria?

Excellent article Emmagee

Incidentally. I just carried out an informal survey of my married male colleagues on the trading floor as to whether they would be happy to entrust their child to a male nursery worker. Reassuringly the answer was a resounding yes, subject to the normal checks/instincts etc that would be applied to a female worker. The only bloke who disagreed was the one who spends every spare second in the local lap dancing club!!. We are not exactly talking about enlightened men here so I was pleastantly suprised.

Croppy, yes definitely! it is a great place to bring up children.

Lil - ha ha! lovely view of why women wear chadors. Slightly insulting to the majority of men? I have never worn one myself, but I think, where women choose, ie not made to by husband or father, it is more to do with female self respect, ie You are not going to get a free look at my legs, controlled or otherwise!!

Bells, I am happy for you that your colleagues are apparently so enlightened, but doesn't it occur to you that in this case the man who spends every spare evening in the local lap dancing club is probably better qualified to be realistic about the seamier side of life??

Ha ha Sml, thought you might say that!!. He is also deeply sexist and racist so I fully expected him to respond as he did which was to announce to anybody within earshot that any bloke who wanted to work in a nursery was obviously a "poof"!!!.

Women wearing head to toe robes has nothing to do with modesty, it is to do with cultural expectations. Giving men a free look at our legs - please! Not only is that still insulting to the majority of males but surely we stopped believing in that stuff when the Edwardians peeled themselves out of whalebone corsets.
Also which culture are we talking about where it transgresses the norm for boys and girls to play unsupervised together?

I'm afraid I have grave doubts about the validity of arguements which say that by denying women equality in society they are actually being "empowered" through the respect that they are accorded by men. Seems to me like a great excuse for keeping them in their place!

Oh Bells, I have now got myself off the floor!!!, obviously a complete toss pot. What gives some men a thrill to watch women leaping about in the half nudy and then full nudy, my worse halfs comment was "once you've seen one woman, they don't look any different, even if they are bouncing about or upside down on a pole", this was after watching a music video on MTV Dr Dre and Snoop Dog, the song The Last Episode, oh god I'm getting hip aren't I, kids love the song, but the video is a bit risque to say the least!!. How some of those women are so thin and have breasts like footballs and they remain upright, and when they jump about it's like 2 ferrets fighting in a bag. Oh dear, got off the subject, just thought a bit if enlightenment wouldn't do any harm, I will now waft off and collect eldest off the bus, and brace myself for the ensuing cat fight when she comes homes, now where did I put the first aid box????????????

Tee Hee Tigger.. 2 weeks ago we had a job application for the position as our departmental secretary. Her job before last was described as "topless podium dancer". A lot of men going slightly pink and very eager to interview her, solely on the basis of fairness etc of course!

Hmmm...how to get a job in the City of London. Why did I never think of that?

Too right Croppy, what a scam. Muslim men say to women that as long as they do what the men consider fit, then the men will respect them. How about, if the men stop abusing, raping, starting wars, bullying etc then the muslim women might show them some respect. But no, the Koran wasn't written by a woman...

Incidentally Sml, what is your view on the Taliban? doesn't their views scare you? I had to laugh this week as the papers and governments made a fuss about buddhist statues being blown up by the Taliban, and yet not a murmer about the complete opression of women. Doesn't that make you sick. if any ethnic group were being treated like the women are, the US would be out there bombing away. But no its only women who are trapped in their houses without any rights whatsoever!!!
(BTW this is my pet hate subject)

Croppy, I totally agree with you - and I have met women in this situation. It does nothing for their characters, or the men who run around after them on the pretext that the women can't do anything themselves.

Bugsy - actually I am sure if you asked women who wear chadors, the majority would honestly say that they wanted to do so. In Kabyle, as I said before, most women choose, and many do choose to wear it. And, yes, they do regard themselves and their bodies differently from how English women do, though that doesn't always lead to the conclusion that floor length robes are necessary of course. Did you know by the way, that among other European countries, especially round the Mediterranean, English women are regarded as loose?

Lil, please don't get me started on the Taliban -I can't talk about it without foaming at the mouth. You are SO right about the statues - the international attitude makes me sick.

Emmagee - thanks for pointing this out. I've emailed Richard alerting him to this discussion.

But so what if they are regarded this way Sml? Fortunately British women enjoy equal rights under law (unlike many of these countries you refer to) and are entitled to behave sexually any way they like.

To my mind, any judgements that are made about the behaviour of British women reflect more badly on those making the judgement than us Brits!.

Lil, how can you object to me saying I won't employ a male childminder when you make such dreadfully anti men statements??

Re the Taliban, of course I agree that govt should be secular not religious.

If other countries wish to view English females as loose that is their prerogative. What matters is how we view ourselves.
If women are genuinely happy wearing chadors then I am pleased for them. I would be interested to see some genuine research done on the subject.
I am still not sure what all this has to do with men working with children.

I don't want to put words into Lil's mouth but I somehow suspect she wouldn't seek an assurance from a nursery that they would never employ a Muslim male worker. All those accusations are factually correct for Muslim men as they are for just about every other nationality / religious group. None of us are denying that men do rape and abuse just that you shouldn't judge an individual on the basis of the behaviour of the broader group to which they happen to belong.

Sml, can I have poetic license please - it wasn't anti all men, it was anti-men that oppress women in the name of religion!

As for views on Brits, my German friends think we're terribly uptight, not loose at all. They use unisex saunas and sunbathe naked and their prostitutes are treated as professionals that pay tax... they really do have a healthy attitude to sex.

Sml, I certainly know about men from Mediterranean cultures regarding English women as loose. Purely on the basis of my red hair and English accent I was pestered, followed home, received offensive notes under my hall of residence door and under my shower cubicle door, and generally made to feel a prisoner in my accommodation, during the year I spent in France as a student. The perpetrators were my near neighbours in my hall of residence, young men from Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco.
Not that it should have made the slightest difference, but I was a bit of a prudish miss in those days, dressed pretty modestly for a 20 year old student and led a quiet life. It put me off ever visiting North Africa.