Changing T&C without telling me?

[Thatsnotmycat]

Hi, hope someone would be able offer some advice. Our company has just been transferred to a new one. During this process I have taken an internal promotion. It now appears that all my T&C have been changed to those of the new company.. and they’ve not told me about it. I only found out looking at my own pay/work portal. I’ve raised the issue with HR but they are dragging their feet offering me an explanation. TUPE applied when the transfer happened. I’m just wondering where does that put me. Can they just change everything without telling? I really want to go back on my old T&C and I’m worried that they will just say the change in contract happened as standard when I took the new role. I have email correspondence from HR from when I was offered the promotion and they confirmed my T&C wouldn’t change. I feel like they are now backtracking. Any advice gratefully received.

But the TUPE only applied to the transferred job - you took up a new role and so they are indeed permitted to transfer you to the terms that are associated with that job. They aren't required to tell you that - you are responsible for knowing the legal position, and employers don't have to explain such things. That is why there are unions, so that employees can get advice on employment matters.

I suspect that the "confirmation" that the terms wouldn't change is an error - it's probably the template letter that is used for all internal appointments, and they didn't realise that you were on different terms.

If you really want to pursue this then you will need to take out a grievance - but it is entirely possible that they won't change their minds, and there would be very little that you could do to force them to. If they decided to put you back to your original job, would that make you happier? Because if that is possible, you could ask them to give you your old job and terms back. Although, again, you couldn't force them to.

They can’t change without telling you no. It’s perfectly standard for an optional job change after a TUPE transfer to be conditional on changing other terms and conditions, but you’d need to have been told that.

Did you have any kind of letter confirming your promotion, new salary etc?

Can you evidence that advice with the law please? Because there doesn't appear to be any law that says an employer must tell you if terms and conditions are changed as a result of getting a new job. It only says that if the terms of an existing job change got must be consulted...

Can you evidence that with the law please? Show me where it says an employer only needs to inform of a terms and conditions change if the job is staying the same.

Imagine the scenario if that were the case. Person is in job A on a month’s notice. Person is promoted to job B and receives a letter saying their salary was going up and job title was changing. Two years later, person wants to resign. Gives a month’s notice. Employer says “oh no, when your job changed, as well as changing your salary and job title which you knew about, we also secretly changed your notice period to 6 months but we didn’t tell you that.

Come on! Of course if a new job will involve different terms the employer has to say that before the person accepts the job, so they can make an informed decision about whether to accept it!

That's a double negative. Something is lawful unless the law says otherwise. The law clearly and categorically stipulates the circumstances in which an employer must consult with regard to changes in terms of employment. Those circumstances only apply to changes for an existing contract - and even then, imposing changes is not at all difficult to do. You stated categorically that they can't change the terms - that they CAN'T do something - without informing the employee. If they CAN'T do it, there must be a law that says they can't. There is no such law.

TUPE law is short but sweet - the terms of a job are protected for the transferring job at the point of transfer. Not another job after the transfer. Even with TUPE, it is relatively easy to change the terms of existing jobs AFTER the transfer by stipulating ETO justifications.

If you are going to tell someone that something is unlawful, then you really need to be able to reference that when asked to so that when that person tells the employer that they've been told by an anonymous poster on an internet website that the employer is acting unlawfully, the OP can back up that claim. Otherwise someone can turn a bad situation into an even worse one.

I'm unable to provide a law that says that an employer must consult or inform because the law is silent - therefore it's allowed. You need to provide a law that says it's not allowed.

OP, there is a difference between what the employer must do and what they can choose to do. You need to know what that difference is when talking to them. If the employer allows you to retain your former posts terms, that is their choice - it is not something they must do. Demanding rights you don't have would be the fastest way of not getting what you want whilst also creating a conflict with your new employer that you can't win but might have lasting repercussions. Ask. Don't demand.

To repeat, if the law "of course" says something, then you'll be able to provide the law that says it.

Thanks for your responses. So before we had this new company they made a massive deal of saying that T&C would be protected for existing staff even if they take new jobs within the organisation. When I was offered the job I emailed our HR representative and asked if my terms would stay the same and she said yes. When I noticed a change in in portal I agin asked HR to confirm that my terms had stayed the same and they said they have. But now they are backtracking. I don’t think I would have taken the job if I knew the terms would change because essentially whilst I’m paid more in my new role the salary is fixed. My old job had scales which you went up automatically and had better holiday, sick leave etc. I know that eventually they will try and get people in to the new terms but I was hoping that when the time came as it would effect a large number of people we would have representation. I’m the only one in the company affected as I am the only person that’s taken an internal promotion since the new company formed.

Also so not to drip feed the company is so new that they don’t have the new policies available for staff to see. So it’s a case of asking about each aspect. They’re saying that it’s such a massive body of work that they haven’t managed to complete them yet. Any new starters it appears and negotiating individual contracts.

”The law clearly and categorically stipulates the circumstances in which an employer must consult with regard to changes in terms of employment. Those circumstances only apply to changes for an existing contract”

Exactly. Show me the exception to that where that law doesn’t apply if the role itself is changing. The law says terms and conditions can’t be unilaterally changed without the employees knowledge. It doesn’t then specify an exception to that if the job title is changing.

If no exceptions are specified in a piece of legislation, it is not lawful for an employer to invent them.

The OP’s existing contract was changed. She was notified of the changes when it came to her job title and (presumably) salary, but her employer are now saying that actually they changed several other aspects of her contract as well, without her knowledge. That’s not lawful. Even more so if they categorically told her that wasn’t the case.

I’m actually astonished that someone is saying with (presumably) a straight face that one party to a contract can be held by the other party to terms the first party hasn’t even been told about! The fundamental basic of contract law and employment involve both parties to a contract being fully aware of the terms of the contract. It is simply not possible to enforce a ‘contract’ only one party was aware of.

Absolutely bonkers that I’m having to explain that.

“Dear HR I refer to your letters dated x and y in which you confirmed that upon taking my new role, the rest of my terms and conditions would remain unchanged. I was concerned to see that the portal has my terms listed incorrectly and would appreciate it if you could make the necessary amendments so that it accurately reflects my agreed terms and conditions”

That’s what I’d do.

I'm afraid you clearly don't understand how the law works. It's unlawful to discriminate, isn't it? No. Actually it's entirely lawful to discriminate because I don't like you, because you drive a Fiat, or because you have blue eyes. It is only unlawful to discriminate on specific grounds.

Employers can make mistakes, and if they do they can correct those mistakes. But this is really easy, and I'm not going to spend my time arguing a negative. If and when the employer refuses to allow the OP her previous terms, which law will she be quoting to the employment tribunal? It really is that simple. Just tell her which law it is she'll be using. Because I'm Bening honest and not saying that the employer MUST do anything, just what they can do. They can agree with the OP that's it's not fair and set things back. They can not agree and do nothing. What they decide to do is up to them. But if the OP doesn't like what they decide then their recourse is the law. And the law with regard to the protection of terms in a TUPE is what I have already set out - it does not apply to a new job.

And it is absolutely easy to enforce a contract change even now - the employer simply had to say take it or leave it. The OP can then literally take it or allow the employer to terminate their contract, then roll the dice on whether an employment tribunal supports them or the employer - and that's a big risk to take given the odds on employees winning tribunals and the fact that the OP would need to get themselves dismissed!

There is a huge difference between what is fair and what is lawful. This is unfair. There's absolutely no evidence that it's unlawful. And if you want to make this personal, I can't believe that I have to explain that fact to an adult.

Now I'm not going to be arguing with you any more. The OP can take your advice and tell her employer they CAN'T do it, and see what happens. If, however, they do it anyway, I hope you'll be finding her possible loss of a job and the tribunal case. People have a right to know what risks they are taking when they assert something. I have made those risks clear - the employer can refuse to budge, the employer can enforce the change, and they can dismiss the OP leaving her to go to a tribunal and take her chances. I'm not saying they WILL do that, only that they can. You, on the other hand, are saying an absolute - they can't do it. Really, does anyone believe that they can't?

For what it’s worth I agree with Lucy100.

OP might get an apology, or an excuse that HR have incorrect advice unintentionally.

Show me the exception. Show me where it says an employer has to consult on terms and conditions changes unless the job title is being changed.

Can’t do it can you? Didn’t think so.

Also show me anything, case law, legislation, anything, which demonstrates that one party of a contract can be held to terms and conditions they were completely unaware of?

Nope? Didn’t think so.

lucy question, say now that my leave entitlement has changed how would I know that if they haven’t told me. I think that’s the issue I just don’t know what my new terms and conditions are? Do they not have duty to tell me what they are?

My job offer just said congratulations on the new role. It didn’t include any other information, I wasn’t issued a physical contract to sign or anything.

It’s like I’ve stepped into a parallel universe where no employment contract is enforceable by an employer because an employer apparently has the right to secretly change it to say something different without the employee’s knowledge.

Enforced by an employee, not an employer.

This guide from Acas might be useful. Nowhere does it say that informing an employee of terms and conditions changes is not required in the event the person’s job title is changing.

OP, I'm not unsympathetic but no - a DUTY to tell you must be enshrined in law. It's not an obligation in law. What is fair or nice or even sensible isn't the same thing. And how would you know? Well how do you know?!! You looked it up. You have access to these portals so that you can look at things. The information there forms part of a huge number of things that fit together to form terms and conditions - it's not as simple as the written statement of main particulars. Every policy, every access point, custom and practice, and such MAY form part of the terms. Many do. Some don't.

I think what is happening here is that the thread has become bogged down with irrelevance. Can they do it? Yes. They have done it. Is it lawful? Well that will take a tribunal to decide, because short of that there is nothing you can say that will force them to return you to your old terms. Whether they wish to push the matter that far - or whether you wish to push the matter that far - is for the parties to decide.

If you are going to push back, you'll need to ensure you use the grievance procedures first. And that might be enough. But I can't and won't promise you something that isn't in my gift. So that might work out for you. It might not. If not then you will have to state, as an absolute, that you refuse the terms. Then the ball is in their court. What you can't do is carry on working without rejecting the terms - now that you know, not doing anything will imply agreement in law.

Government advice here, no suggestion that an employer doesn’t have any obligation to tell an employee about terms and conditions changes, in fact the opposite.

Thanks for all your comments. As mentioned not all the new policies are available to view so I only know about my pay and leave. I don’t know what else they have changed.. as I haven’t been told and can’t see the relevant policy. I had a meeting with HR last week and they are looking into the issue, so I’ll update you when they come back to me. I guess I just wanted to know if what they were doing was lawful and whether I was essentially midsole the job and what that means for me. As mentioned previously they didn’t get me to sign a new contract so again I don’t know if that affects things.

To change your terms lawfully OP they would have had to tell you what terms apply before you accepted the job, so you had an opportunity to decline. That would have been perfectly acceptable and normal in your situation.

Instead they’ve offered you the job on one set of terms, and you’ve accepted it on that basis, the contract is formed at that point.

I'm afraid you clearly don't understand how the law works

I'm sorry but you are the one displaying a basic lack of understanding. If you want to change the terms of a contract you need the agreement of both parties. You cannot use the other party's agreement to change one term as an excuse to change the other terms without their agreement.

However, since you want a specific, I will give you the specific. Employment Rights Act 1996 section 4 requires the employer to give the employee written details of any change to the particulars of employment. The new company has clearly not complied with this requirement.