Does friend owe annual leave to employer?

[m0therofdragons]

Df has worked for employer in public sector for 9 years. He's currently going through a redundancy/reapplying for a job process and then he received a letter from HR saying they'd looked through his contract and realised they've miscalculated his annual leave the whole 9 years and he owes 20 hours annual leave! Can they really demand back from such a long period when it's their error?

They cannot deduct any money from your friend's wages without prior permission and agreement, that's the first most important thing.

They need to have gone through a period of thorough investigation and come to a mutual decision that 20 days is owed. This would involve some cooperation from your friend. It would also involve reference to employment contract over AL entitlement v what was taken.

They would need to declare what they hold on their records (eg annual leave tracking system, excel spreadsheets whatever, plus any approval correspondence from managers your friend reported to over 9 years - unlikely!), that has led them to conclude 20 days is due.

In reality, unless they hold meticulous records that proves without doubt that their findings are reliable, the likelihood of them holding your friend's feet to the fire over an average of 2 days per annum is pretty small.

20 hours?
That's less than 3 days
Sounds ridiculously petty seeing as it's their mistake

Sorry I skipread and saw 20 HRs as 20 days

Are you serious OP?

He’s had 2 hours extra holiday entitlement a year for 9 years?

I'm kinda questioning the bonkers scenario of a public sector HR dept wasting time writing an employee a letter to claw back 2 hours / year over 9years!

Even if the 20 hours were specific to one year's employment, I still don't get it.

^ if they don't specify which year it relates to, that is....

I would ask to see detailed breakdown then agree to pay it back over the same time frame.

I’m sure if it was the other way round they wouldn’t be so quick to offer him the hours.

Yes I know it sounds bonkers. HR is a total mess and an external company has come in and taken over. Basically they told him what leave he was entitled to (worked out in hours as it is for all staff) and he didn't question it. It sounded right and HR know don't they? (Or so you'd think). I am stunned they expect to deduct pay for this. In a way he wants to fight it but with lots of redundancies going on he also wants a job at the end of the process.

Best practice is to round up to the nearest day. He would have to ask them what their calculations are and work it out.

He is entitled to 5.6 weeks per year, which includes bank holidays. So you can work out what he should have had in days and what he was given.

There is a calculator on gov.uk that works out holiday entitlement by hours. It’s very useful for people who work odd hours and want to record holiday taken.

Has he worked extra unpaid hours. I bet he has! If so how about replying that you’ve calculated that he’s worked XXX hours unpaid over the past 9 years but your husband is prepared to call it quits. 😬

(Obviously this may not apply or work in real life)

Best practice is to round up to the nearest day. He would have to ask them what their calculations are and work it out.

Public sector tends to use hours now. Might round up to nearest half/full hour but not day.

How has the mistake occurred? Has he been receiving 2h more per year than his contract stated or was his contract incorrect?

Is this the NHS? Really looking wouldn't surprise me. Their HR are abysmal.

Ahem. 🙄

It's local council and df is part time so worked out pro rata. They're arguing over a couple of hours a year (which yes he's done more than in un recorded overtime!).

Re nhs - the new system accidentally gave me 3 weeks extra. Luckily, being such an obvious mistake I was able to point it out but I really feel the onus should be on HR to tell employees what leave they are entitled to!

I'd argue anything from the previous year is too late to argue over. If they'd under allocated I doubt they'd be going back 9 years.

I really feel the onus should be on HR to tell employees what leave they are entitled to!

The onus is on managers to advise their staff. My team would need to be about 6 times bigger to deal with this for every member of staff!

The onus is on managers to advise their staff. My team would need to be about 6 times bigger to deal with this for every member of staff!

Huh? Every staff member gets equal leave although it increases after 5 and 10 years. There is a calculation HR do. Telling someone "you work x hours per week (fixed hours no deviation) means you're entitled to xx hours leave per year" is surely part of the job of hr as per their policies, it's not a negotiation with the manager

Nope. Managers are responsible for day to day staff matters in the NHS now. HR staff predominantly exist to advise managers, not staff. There are calculators managers and staff can do to check the leave entitlement on ESR is right, and they liaise with ESR teams if they aren’t. They ensure that bank holidays etc are booked properly.

Leave entitlement can vary due to hours worked, working patterns, purchased leave, carried over leave, and other adjustments. HR staff may well be involved if a policy needs to be invoked, but they absolutely don’t have capacity to be checking every member of staff’s leave entitlement and informing them. We’d never do anything else!

It’s not about negotiation, BTW. It’s a straightforward online calculation that shouldn’t be beyond the whit of managers.

(I suspect my experience of what HR is and isn’t for is somewhat more than yours. The days of them wiping managers’ arses are well and truly over.)

The problem is Titty, that in some NHS trusts, no one bothers to tell managers what systems they should be using and how to get access. I've been in post 3 months and manage 4 people. I still don't have access to the manager part of ESR so can't log any of their sick leave. All holiday is booked using a paper holiday form, which is so open to abuse. I can't understand why this isn't all done online.

Okay, the acute Trust I work in has erosta and although managers are responsible for filling in hours worked, HR set each employee up on the system so a manager would use that to guide them as to annual leave. HR definitely do this in my trust (nhs).

Friend is council and whether hr or his manager calculated annual leave I still feel it's not his fault. He started the job, was told "you can have xx annual leave" and he's taken that and only that, signed off each time for 9 years. I understand they need to correct this now but to back date it seems unfair.

I have worked in a number of workplaces, private and public sector, and no two hr depts are the same. Bizarre that somebody who has never met me on an online chat thinks they can claim to have much more experience than me despite no knowledge of the sector I work in, but okay.

Interesting to hear different ways it works though so thank you for the helpful comments.