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Original poster

Compulsary training courses at work - some issues...

24 replies

Hulababy · 26/04/2007 18:31

I work in a prison, within the education department and I am employed by a college (not HMP). I work part time (0.5) as a Learning and Skills Advisor.

When I took the job, just over two years ago the qualification requirements was to have a degree and a teaching qualification, both of which I have.

However we are now being told that we must now have a Level 4 qualification in Information, Advice and Guidance (IAG).

I know all new applicanats for similar posts will have to have this or be working towards it.

But, this is my issue. This is a change to my job requirements/terms.

I have no problem with doing this course as such. Not ideal really as will involve a fair bit of work to start with, with assignments, etc. and it lasts a full year. But it's a qualification which is accredited so might be useful one day, you never know.

However, there appears to eb an issue over fitting int he course and working my contracted hours.

One manager is saying that as the course is on my work day (Tuesday) I will be exoected to come in on my days off (I have two free days a week from work) to make up my hours. I will get paid training rate for the course hours, which is only 50% of my actual hourly pay. Besdies which I don't want to use my off days for more work - I work PT for a reason and have other things to do those days.

Can they make us do this, re the hours? How would that work if it was a full time member of staff?

So far I have agreed to do the course providing I don't have to make up the hours.

Any advice at all? Thanks.

OP posts:

Original poster

Hulababy · 26/04/2007 18:34

Oh,

The course will run one day a month between May (yes - two week's notice given!!!, at XScape, which is further away from than my normal work place, and will talke me about an hour and half to get there, esp in rush hour traffic.

OP posts:

Idreamofdaleks · 26/04/2007 18:48

Bumping for you as I don't know the answer - seems pretty unreasonable though.

Maybe ACAS could help you?

BizzyDint · 26/04/2007 18:53

i would be very surprised if they can make you do this making up your hours thing. you are contracted for a set number of hours. and compulsory course should be done within your contracted hours. what does your contract say? does it have some blah about you must be flexible to do extra hours when necessary?

Original poster

Hulababy · 26/04/2007 19:06

Not checked contract yet - need to find it! But I suspect as with all teaching contracts it will say something along the lines of "plus any hours deemed nec by the head..."

I guess my main thing is - would they expect a FTimer to come in on a weekend or holiday to make up the hours? If not, then why should I just because I am part time.

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southeastastra · 26/04/2007 19:57

i'd be interested to find out too hulababy.

i'm having the same sort of problem with my company and an nvq. i'm losing money as i have to get someone to cover a freelance type job i do to do the nvq. my company keep arguing that they shouldn't pay me for the course, which is only a couple of hours for a few months.

beansprout · 26/04/2007 19:59

This really doesn't sound right. They can't insist you take a course and then change your hours! If it is done in work hours then your work hours remain the same, the fact they are insisting you go to college is up to them!

Changing your hours is a change to your contract. What have HR said?

mrsjohnsimnelcake · 26/04/2007 20:00

try your house insurance to see if they cover you to talk to a lawyer about this. #good luck

Original poster

Hulababy · 26/04/2007 20:00

Not spoken to them yet. Only found that the course was going ahead so soon this morning!

OP posts:

Original poster

Hulababy · 26/04/2007 20:01

mrsjohnsimnelcake - DH is a solicitor. I have asked him to speak to the partner in the employment department as soon as he can.

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Cloudhopper · 26/04/2007 20:02

This sounds very wrong to me. If they need you to do additional hours, they should pay you. Your contract is to work part-time, so they can't expect you to make the extra hours up for free. Certainly not if it is compulsory to go on the course.

At the very least they should pay you for the extra hours if you agree to make up the time. Assuming you have extra childcare costs on those days, how could they justify that?

Original poster

Hulababy · 26/04/2007 20:06

Cloudhopper - they will pay me. They will pay me training rate - which is 50% of what my normal rate would be. DD at school, so in that sense not an issue. But I simply just don't want to do the extra hours - I have other things to do on my days off.

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SueW · 26/04/2007 20:11

In a dept I used to work in, there was an option every so often for people to be promoted but to do so they had to give up one of their two free days a week (full-time workers) to go to college - work paid for the course.

I'm not quite sure how this worked because the only person I ever knew go through it left shortly after she started college - she'd been bunking off.

Original poster

Hulababy · 26/04/2007 20:13

SueW - no promotion route available here anyway, and I can't move to anothe rprison in this role either. All the new IAG posts requiring this qualification (as well as my teaching one) are on a different pay scale now - which is less pay and much less holidays! So I am not moving, lol!

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Cloudhopper · 26/04/2007 20:17

Oh I see. But I can see why you don't want to go. I am certain that they can't make you go. Surely they should get a supply teacher in to cover you if needs be.

They couldn't force a full timer to do a Saturday course, and that is effectively what they are asking you to do. Imagine if you actually had a job on the other days - or other commitments. They just can't demand this.

islandofsodor · 26/04/2007 21:53

DH is is a teacher on 0.4. Well I say a teacher, he is employed by the LEA music service who send him into schools.

Anyway there are compulsory courses he has to do (CP type stuff usually) or whatever new thing the gove brings in but he has the right to refuse to come in on his days off though so far he has agreed to swop his contracted days.

He does actually have two other jobs so isn't in a posision to be that flexible anyway.

Original poster

Hulababy · 27/04/2007 08:32

cloudhopper - no cover needed. I can still almost make my contact hours (the time I spend interviewing) for the academic year, bar 12 hours worth (and that is only because I have had to have sick leave this year due to an ongoing medical problem. It would be my non-contact hours I would be giving up - which is fine. I can just about manage to do everything without that time, as I generally get in at least 30 minutes early each morning as it is, and can often cut my lunch short.

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Cloudhopper · 27/04/2007 09:03

SOrry hulababy, somewhere along the line I forgot that you were in the education sector but not a teacher.

I think that if they have a compulsory training course then they are obliged by law to allow you to do it in work time. I assume that you probably have some sort of formal right to non-contact time?

Original poster

Hulababy · 27/04/2007 11:07

Yes, my time is divided into contact and non contact time. I have a certain number of contact hours that I am expected to do each year. I am going to argue that it comes out on non conatct/professional development time, not my own free time. The only problem is, because of sick leave and my holidays, that will make me about 12 hours short on contact time. And I have yet to have my operation (linked to the sick leave) and depending on when thay falls that may been up to a week off (so another 11 hours).

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Cloudhopper · 27/04/2007 11:09

Out of my depth here. Bumping in case someone with more specific employment law knowledge can help! Good luck whatever turns out.

Original poster

Hulababy · 27/04/2007 11:14

Thanks for the help

At least I know that everyone thinks this is not right. Can't believe the manager here actually thinks it is fine TBH!

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Cloudhopper · 27/04/2007 11:39

i agree with you - although i have no idea what the specific legislation is - i am sure this isn't right.

chocolatekimmy · 27/04/2007 13:17

You need to check your contract and any policies it refers to separately regarding training.

A question I would ask is what do the full timers do - if they are 5 days per week? Are they forced to work on a weekend or normal rest day.

I would expect compulsory training to be carried out in normal work hours but like I say it depends on contract/policy

Sparks · 27/04/2007 14:26

The question about what they do for full timers is important. Legally, the Part Time Workers Regulations say employers cannot treat a part time worker less favourably than comparable full time workers. If full timers do not have to make up the hours (and I doubt they would) then you do not have to either.

Original poster

Hulababy · 08/05/2007 21:18

Thanks all.

Well, I did the first half day today - the introduction day. I have claimed for it on Staff development, which means I should not be making up my hours.

I ahve actually taken this a bit further, alogng with one of my colleagues. Apparantly the manager has already been told that this must come out of staff development and that we are not expected to make up any contact hours. So think they have just been trying it on!

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