Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Work

Chat with other users about all things related to working life on our Work forum.

Sensible Advice (and hand hold) urgently needed please...

27 replies

Mincepiesareverynice · 17/11/2017 13:06

As I passed the end of my tether months ago.

Short version is that I have been in my current role for several years and have had no issues, appraisals always good, not even one day off sick. Sorry, this is still going to be long. Thanks in advance for reading.

The role is perfect for me, quite senior, part time and fits in well with child care for my preschool child. Professional Role.

Around this time last year there was an issue at work where I ended up making an informal complaint of sex discrimination, however as my child was unwell at the time and then needed to change Nursery I did not have the energy to pursue this more formally at the time, and the issues did not reoccur, or so I thought. I have email evidence printed out in a safe place (not at work).

Around the same time I had represented a member (I am a union rep) that I had to refer on to the regional office who was being bullied out of her job, and later took my employer to tribunal. Following that the Senior Manager involved was transferred to my Team office location at around Easter time this year. We work across a very large geographical area.

My Line Manager suddenly and unexpectedly then went off on extended Sick Leave.

Chaos reigned in the Office. We have a system of work allocation where Team Members take it in turns to allocate referrals to other Team Members and in practice this means Cherry Picking of Work and Annual Leave goes on a lot.

My workload being part time became ridiculous. I was then “allocated” a really complex case.

Long story short is I visited the home of this person twice, nobody raised any issues directly with me, however I had noted that this individual was extraordinary in reactions to basic questions, therefore the second time I took a colleague with me as a Witness. Because I had to recommend withdrawal of funding for this person’s relative, this person waited until my assessment was complete and only then sent a very long letter containing a very lengthy personal attack on me directly to my employer copied in to some of the others present at the second visit, this was a targeted attack. Five pages long. The Senior Manager then phoned around the others “to confirm it is all true” but at this point had not approached me at any point. This is a known occupational hazard in my role, I have never had a complaint before, my colleagues have, but nobody has been treated the way that I have over this.

I found out about this Letter when I contacted the person via telephone which was the week after the visit as I had suggested they may wish to submit evidence for the File. I then approached the Senior Manager, who proceeded to verbally abuse me for two hours in front of my Line Manager who had commenced a phased return to work days before. This resulted in me physically breaking down, I still have stomach pains related to this but was totally humiliated and embarrassed at the time. The two Managers then left mid afternoon and I left at the end of the day to start my two weeks planned Annual Leave.

On my return to work I was immediately suspended. No access to anything. I was allocated a support person who was also the Investigating Officer, who then went on two weeks Annual Leave. The union have been and are still being totally useless.

Following my investigation meeting the suspension was lifted and I returned to work under close supervision of management, no details of this or specific reasons for this were given. My Line Manager and everyone else was forbidden to discuss due to confidentiality, it has been very difficult but I have “kept calm and carried on”.

The Investigation took several months. The report is fifteen pages long. The disciplinary hearing happened last week. There were five witnesses who all attended, one was my support colleague. The two Managers were interviewed but not called as witnesses. My Line Manager fully supports me but is completely intimidated by the Senior Manager.

Basically there are two external and two internal witnesses. On the day of the hearing one of the external witnesses did not turn up claiming to be off sick with stress. The other has been basically badmouthing me ever since the first visit and has form for this behaviour. The two internal witnesses are Senior to me, did not “need” to be at this meeting and basically if there were any actual concerns at the time could have stopped the meeting. I am the chair of this meeting, these are highly contentious meetings, it was difficult but doable, my colleague has backed me up and saw no reason to stop the meeting at the time either. The meeting was almost four hours long, I am being accused of being “rude and abrasive” throughout this time, originally it was accusations of being aggressive and bullying.

Out of three allegations of gross misconduct which may result in summary dismissal, one allegation was partially upheld “on the balance of probabilities” and two sanctions imposed, training, counselling and written warning for one year from date of issue. Basically the unnecessary presence of these seniors has meant I was outnumbered, but this is always the case in these meetings, I am essentially a Lone Worker in the Community, I took a colleague as a witness, not sure what else I could have done? The incident has not been investigated, I have been personally investigated and subsequently am being blamed for this, they are I feel setting themselves up nicely to bully me further.

The hearing lasted all day. Five hours. I was then only asked a few questions at the end, my official paperwork from the visit a 50 page document that I was handwriting throughout was all correct and the panel have looked at this and all the evidence and ratified my recommendation to withdraw funding. Usually these meetings last on average around two hours, this took twice as long, as the person and relative was rushing off to a Hospital appointment in the afternoon, this was very poor planning, I did have to cut things shorter than I would have liked, but I remained professional and wasn’t rude. There was constant challenge from others present and disruption which I had to contain to do the task at hand, which I focused on and completed as I usually would.

I have now received my outcome Letter and need to decide quickly about appealing or not. The union are saying they strongly advise against and won’t support this, I have no-one else, my Line Manager is probably too intimidated and will want permission from HR, I want to clear my name, the union are useless and have done very little all along, even basics such as taking notes at meetings.

My question is should I appeal? What could I say? The union are saying don’t bother, raise a Formal Grievance against the Senior Manager instead. But the two unnecessary senior witnesses are (having not met them previously as work in other roles and locations within my organisation) now in new roles where they are based one in my Team and the other covering for my Line Manager when she is on Leave. Something doesn’t seem genuine about this, it is all very convenient but nobody is listening or taking me seriously. Help!

I haven’t had any real support throughout all of this, it is quite overwhelming and I need to put my child first, but this includes staying in employment to fund her school place where she is now blossoming. I feel trapped as now have this on my record so getting out will be extra difficult and am already exhausted and my health suffering, finally been to GP for some investigations this week.

Currently I am now taking some leave as not had chance to really take a break for the past year with one thing and another as I have said above. So even if I could find another job which fits in with school, my health, motivation are at rock bottom and I have this black mark on me, which is what this has been about really all along. This a brief outline of what I have been and am going through.

Solicitors, at least the ones I have spoken to so far, are not really interested, because there isn’t much they can do I think, and they cannot accompany me to any meetings. My house insurance has legal cover but only if actually sacked they said when I phoned them.

I know there are lots of very helpful and knowledgeable people on here, please can anyone suggest a realistic, viable way forward?

OP posts:
daisychain01 · 17/11/2017 21:21

From what I can ascertain from your complex OP, you were assigned to a case (sounds like you are a social worker or similar professional?) and you visited the client twice, you had to decline some sort of funding then they "got nasty" and put in a negative report about you which was investigated. Have I got that right?

There are two pieces of key information that you've omitted, which are key to this situation

  1. What were the allegations that led your management having to investigate you?
  1. What was the outcome of the Investigation (in the letter) which strangely you've omitted.

Unless you can share this relevant information it isn't easy to advise in any meaningful way.

In any case, if you believe you have been wronged then you should put in an appeal. I'm not sure what a grievance against the manager will achieve other that extending this ordeal in a direction that won't help clear your name.

Mincepiesareverynice · 17/11/2017 21:58

Daisychain, thank you for replying.

You are correct so far, I don’t really want to go into too much identifying details though.

The client is well known to mix up lots of issues and create general difficulties in dealing with the case, this is in my assessment a tactic, there are very significant amounts of public and other funding sources involved, this client very much plays the victim and is doing financially very well out of this.

The Letter was five typed pages long, mainly complaining about me personally in relation to the two visits I made to complete my assessment. Again, a common tactic to influence funding decisions.

Strangely, although I raised this at the time, rather than protecting me from this targeted personal attack or investigating the incident as a whole, an investigation into me personally was launched by the employer on the say so of this Senior Manager who received the email directly which is unusual, we have a corporate complaints department and policy is for such communications to be forwarded directly to them to deal with.

There were several wish washy recommendations from the investigation report but the main one was to proceed to disciplinary hearing. (Sorry did not mention that specifically in my OP).

The union seem to want to use me as the bait to get back at the Senior Manager, not sure that is what I want or need at this point, and therefore looking for more sensible support. Thanks again for reading, hoped you would see this!

OP posts:
Mincepiesareverynice · 17/11/2017 22:05

Sorry, the allegations were taken out of the Letter by the Investigating Officer I believe, there were boiled down to three main allegations constructed into a basic format, no details in these or the Letter itself which I did not have a copy of although I had read it before going on Leave originally, the allegations were: aggressive and bullying behaviour causing upset and embarrassment during the assessments to all present, also that I had taken the clients court documents from her home and still had these in my personal possession.

OP posts:
BritInUS1 · 17/11/2017 22:10

If your union are not willing to assist you then I would be consulting an employment lawyer for advice. Nobody on here can give you the advice you need.

Mincepiesareverynice · 17/11/2017 22:19

Thanks Brit, I know what you are saying, unfortunately lawyers are £££ and I am looking on here for support in general as much as anything.

I have tried to find legal help but this is not really a situation where a Solicitor can help because employment law is heavily weighted in favour of the employer, my understanding is they can get away with this and I have to suck it up or be unemployed, neither of which I am really up for at this stage. Hoping for general support at least, as getting a bit bogged down now with it all.

OP posts:
daisychain01 · 18/11/2017 06:38

Have you documented the situation? I'm not talking about your official professional report, rather a step by step factual account that could show your side of the story.

It is very complex, I have to admit I'm struggling to know what to say of any practical help to you, other than to recommend that if you do believe things have been misconstrued, and you have been misrepresented, you need to go through official channels, and use the correct processes to argue your case.

If they have not dismissed you (which you state above they have not, otherwise you could use your insurance), stand firm and don't resign until you can see how things progress.

Have your employer's told you what the next steps are and timescales from their pov. They need to explain your rights and where this is going.

Keep a chronological diary of everything from now on. Document dates times names etc including some retrospective notes of the above sequence of events.

Can you try to get a new union rep as it seems they have a vested interest which surprises me as they are meant to represent your best interests.

On a personal note, these processes can be very frightening and isolating, they can be overwhelming. If you can get some emotional support in RL I would recommend it. Do you have access to counselling through work, it sounds like you're in the type of role where that may be relevant. You need someone on your side through this situation. Do pop back here if it helps, even if it's too difficult for you to talk in detail, you don't need to be alone. Stay strong.

Mincepiesareverynice · 18/11/2017 07:58

Daisychain thank you.

My statement written up by the Investigating Officer and HR for the investigation was made six weeks after the event (the Investigating Officer was on holiday for two weeks before this could happen) whilst I was suspended and no access to anything, I refused to sign this, but it has been used anyway and I have been told I cannot change it.

I have made my own Chronology yes.

There are some remaining issues that there is no specific detail to what I am accused of. These meetings are by nature contentious, they are uncomfortable, people claimed they were not listened to but everything is documented in the report I made. There are two sanctions one a written warning from the date of the hearing for a year (the union rep reckons “that will go quick”) and “whatever coaching and retraining needed to ensure this doesn’t happen again”. Very non specific.

In reality I have been forbidden to discuss with anyone my side, even my Line Manager who is horrified but also very intimidated by Senior Management, and all people will see now is “well you’ve got a big black mark and all these people agree so you must be bad”. It is a massive smear campaign. I am keeping notes.

The union rep and her colleague have shared this case, they are the top two full time regional reps in my area. The caveat for using them is that you have to tell them everything and follow their advice or they can withdraw from the case. In reality they use this to protect their limited resources by blaming the member to get the union out of potentially sticky and expensive situations such as this.

I will continue to endeavour to get some personal support in real life and look after myself as best I can, thanks again.

OP posts:
HundredMilesAnHour · 18/11/2017 09:57

You really need to get some legal advice. Your case sounds complex and to give enough information for people to try to help will be far too hurting.

Employment law in the UK (if that's where you are?) isn't "heavily weighted in favour of the employer" so please don't dismiss this route. You get an initial session with an employment lawyer for free, and some lawyers will take your case on a no win-no fee basis (by win, it means a settlement agreement so they take a % of that). Please speak to a specialist employment lawyer.

HundredMilesAnHour · 18/11/2017 09:59

sorry, spellcheck (or my lack of coffee yet!) decided "outing" should become "hurting". Confused

Mincepiesareverynice · 18/11/2017 10:08

Hundred, thank you.

It would probably be both hurting and outing, coffee or not!

To instruct a lawyer I would need to have some idea of what to say, what I want, this in itself is challenging.

Initial enquiries I have made mean anyone who may be able to help me would need several hundred pounds upfront.

Even then, there are the fairly limited options at this point of appeal and or grievances. Need to be careful with either of these as there are risks also.

Even taking Sick Leave would increase the case against me, I fear.

Does anyone have a good lawyer they recommend?

OP posts:
HundredMilesAnHour · 18/11/2017 10:28

Mincepies I will PM you the link to a no win-no fee employment lawyer I used earlier this year. They are solid rather than amazing (I had to chase them to get them to move at the speed I wanted - which was fast!) but the no fees upfront makes a massive difference. Obviously they will only take you on as a client if they think you have a case. So that alone may give you some comfort that at least that it's not you losing the plot and you do have a case. They can do everything remotely and will offer you a free phone consultation first and there is absolutely no pressure to sign up with them.

Mincepiesareverynice · 18/11/2017 10:36

Thanks Hundred, have replied to your pm Smile

OP posts:
HundredMilesAnHour · 18/11/2017 10:59

Have PMd you back. Really hope it helps. Flowers

Mincepiesareverynice · 20/11/2017 10:03

OK so unfortunately as situation is so complex no win no fee is looking unlikely.

I also need to decide today whether to appeal or raise Formal Grievance.

Wondering if anyone is able and willing to help?

Alternatively, recommendations of a good employment lawyer very welcome!

OP posts:
daisychain01 · 20/11/2017 11:40

Hi mincepies you could do both an Appeal if they give you timeframes and a deadline to meet and a Grievance if you feel you have been wronged and if you have the facts documented carefully specific to the manager . How strongly do you feel about the situation.?

Mincepiesareverynice · 20/11/2017 12:13

Hello Daisychain,

I feel very strongly, but at the same time apprehensive regarding my energy levels after fighting this for a year already.

However I have started to consider doing both as you suggest. Onwards and upwards!

The letter asks for an outline of my grounds for appeal so a couple of bullet points via email would keep that rolling, bearing in mind I am still on Leave until next Wednesday and don’t want to get into email ping pong with HR.

The union reckon appealing is too risky as the penalties may be increased and there is also a risk of having to rehear the whole thing, however I am just concerned that by not appealing I am damaging any claims in the future which are surely coming my way.

Any thoughts on how much detail I should put in my appeal email?

Any thoughts on points to include in my Grievance?

OP posts:
daisychain01 · 20/11/2017 18:07

Hi mincepies, a few thoughts and suggestions:

  1. Before you do anything else, think about what you want the outcome to be and what you want to achieve. Are you fighting to keep your job, do you want to leave the organisation completely or would you want to be transferred to a different role elsewhere in the organisation? Unless you are crystal clear in your own mind what your end goal is out of all this, you will get caught up in a vortex, fighting for something without being clear what, and your health and quality of life will be significantly at risk.
  1. Think about what exact claim you think you would take to Tribunal. You mentioned you feel you need to appeal to ensure you have gone through the process. I agree you need to protect yourself for the future, but I can't tell from your post what your claim could be. I speculate that you would claim unfair dismissal, but do you feel it is heading that way. You mentioned summary dismissal, but that would surely have happened by now, which you could then potentially take to your household legal cover, as you would have an "event" to claim against, which currently you don't.

In terms of your Appeal, you need to keep it succinct, very factual and directly in response to the allegations against you. Keep it objective, and as uncomplex as possible, what are the priority few facts you want them to consider, rather than getting too bogged down in the detail. By writing it all down, it will give you a very clear sense of whether you feel the whole case has "legs" or if you lack tangible proof and evidence that what they are saying is inaccurate. Be honest with yourself, does any of what they say hold true. Don't be excessively harsh on yourself, though, just be prepared to see things as they are. The strength of your case can be increased if any of the witnesses you mention in your OP are willing to back you up in your statement. Don't be surprised or bitter if they do not. At times like this, Support can evaporate, but only because people have their own employment to consider and they may be unwilling to stick their head above the parapet. They would probably rather stay silent when push comes to shove.

Regarding the Grievance, if you do go down that avenue, again be factual, non-aggressive, polite and stick to the point - be razor sharp in describing your grievance against the person's actions (not them personally), what you believe they have done wrong and how it has prejudiced your circumstances under review. State your facts in chronological order, dates, event, what happened, who was involved, then what your grievance actually is. The fewer word, the more impactful it will be.

I've kept it to broadbrush principles because of lack of visibility of key facts that may be crucial, which you have quite rightly not wanted to divulge here.

I hope the above helps you think 'beyond the immediate' and enables you to focus on a sense of direction at a time when you must be feeling very isolated and disorientated.

Look after yourself, try to 'ringfence' time when you do not think about this stuff. Clear your head, focus on your DD, and if you need sleep or at least rest, herbal tea, warm bath and lavender / geranium oils are very soothing and uplifting.

Mincepiesareverynice · 23/11/2017 12:46

Thank you Daisychain, for your really very helpful advice and very useful support.

OK so I emailed my appeal to HR, just the absolute basic one liner to get the ball rolling, sent almost at the end of the last working day to respond in time, got a very non descript out of office in return, saying more or less don't expect a quick reply today.

Did get a very brief response confirming receipt and would be in touch soon.

Early night as shattered.

Awoke next morning to two very lengthy emails from both union bods, they are "surprised" apparently and "it won't go anywhere" and demanding a copy of my appeal letter, all this after they said they wouldn't support me in appealing.

So that was yesterday and now a voicemail demanding a phonecall to discuss "discrepancies" in my appeal which HR have forwarded to them.

All hell seems to have broken loose! How can a one liner have any discrepancies anyway?

OP posts:
daisychain01 · 23/11/2017 13:23

Just a quick reply. Even if they try to play hard ball and obfuscate with protestations stay calm. You have every right to your appeal so they may come out with guff but keep it factual and strong.

Revenge ( and yourAppeal) is a dish best served Cold😁

Mincepiesareverynice · 23/11/2017 15:00
Wink
OP posts:
Mincepiesareverynice · 23/11/2017 15:02
Grin
OP posts:
butterfly990 · 23/11/2017 15:45

I would raise your query on this forum.

www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/employment-hr.147/

ddrmum · 23/11/2017 16:05

If you have insurance included in your house policy, it might cover this- worth a look as well. Wishing you all the very best.

Mincepiesareverynice · 28/11/2017 13:33

Thank you so much everyone for continued support.

Interesting website Butterfly!

So this morning I had a very long Letter from the union about discussing my reasons for appeal.

Apparently from what I can make out union are saying the hearing panel acknowledge that I was basically ganged up on in a meeting and because I did not roll over and give in to the outcome the ringleader wanted, the ringleader made a personal complaint about me and when the Senior Manager rang round all the Witnesses originally they agreed it was all true, however at the hearing they then conceded that actually it wasn't really all true, but the panel are still saying that they have considered the ganging up and therefore are not sacking me but anyway I should accept there are more of them than me and therefore I have fairly been given two sanctions to prevent this happening again. One a written warning for a year plus "whatever training is needed" to prevent "this behaviour" happening again.

Is it really me (I don't think it is) or does this just not smell right?

How exactly do I control the opinions of others when they are ganging up on me in direct opposition?

OP posts:
daisychain01 · 28/11/2017 13:49

Clearly the witnesses (are they actual employees of your organisation is a key question?) are aligning against you, as I said upthread likely because they'd rather align themselves to their employer organisation, to protect their own position.

Your personnel record will continue to reflect the formal 'sanction' - in your position I'd want to know for certain that sanction will be 'spent' and removed from your record after the agreed successful period of 1 year.

I expect this is their way of drawing a line under the matter cleanly. The trouble is, you'll be on the back foot, with the perception of wrong doing in the coming year. Whether they are really prepared to support you long-term is something only you can know, depending on your organisational culture.

Based on the latest update, I can't see how you have a Tribunal Claim because they have now played their hand and stated they definitely won't dismiss you.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread