MNHQ here: do well paid people get offered more family friendly working conditions than low paid people?

[RowanMumsnet]

...do those in senior roles get offered more flexibility than those in more junior jobs?

Do people working in the public sector get a better or worse family-friendly deal than people working in law and professional services?

'Why are you asking us, Rowan' I hear you cry

Well we DID ask you and today we're announcing the results.

We found that junior staff and those on low wages are offered less flexibility and fewer family-friendly benefits than well-paid staff in senior positions. However, in a surprising twist, CEOs, MDs, founders and other senior leaders fare worst of all when it comes to family-friendly working.

Here are some of the top lines...

CEOs, founders, MDs, chairpeople and senior leaders have the least family-friendly working conditions of all the job roles studied. (However, it's important to bear in mind that this category will include people running very tiny start-ups, as well as people running huge organisations.)

There’s a huge gulf between the quality of family-friendly conditions available to staff paid more than £25,000pa full-time equivalent (who tend do much better than average) and those available for staff paid less than £25,000pa FTE (who tend to do much worse than average).

The public sector offers the best overall family-friendly package to its staff – but employees in this sector are the most likely to report experiencing negative attitudes from colleagues over different working practices.

The ‘law and professional services’ category offers a package that’s considerably less family-friendly than the average.

Large companies and large corporations tend to offer the best family-friendly conditions, but small-to-medium sized enterprises (50-250 employees) offer a worse overall package than smaller companies (10-50 staff).

Staff working in customer-facing roles (retail, catering etc) tend to have the worst family-friendly offers of any job role aside from CEOs, founders and senior leaders - but junior and clerical workers also do quite badly compared with the average.

73% of respondents (of whom 99% are women) say having children has made it harder to progress in their career, and 64% say they feel less employable since having children.

You can read more about it (and also download a copy of the full report) here.

What do you think? Do the results accord with your experience?

Thanks
MNHQ

I've found v little flexibility with high paid jobs in the city. Bosses I've come across expect a SAHP or seem shocked if you don't have a nanny at home to sort childcare. Contrasting this, I have friends in the civil service who have nothing but praise for their bosses and flexible working arrangements where on the whole they can work anywhere and collect time in lieu when they can do. They have said the drop in pay compared to what they may get in the private sector is totally worth it for this reason.

People in lower paid jobs are less likely to have proven themselves independent, self-managing, responsible individuals.

I'm so glad you posted that as your first comment; it means everyone can safely discount everything else you may post as a load of bollocks and not have to waste their time reading through it.

Low paid jobs include caring/service industry jobs which are not by their nature flexible. A certain number of staff must cover each shift. You can not wait tables or care for elderly people from home or leave shift early and make up the time later.

In other fields seniority brings flexibility and having children before attaining seniority is often less flexible. For example I'm a solicitor. I had my first child only a year and a half after qualifying (not ideal but it was a second career and I was already 30). Going back to work was a huge struggle because as a junior solicitor you assist other lawyers files rather than have your own caseload so you are constantly running to a timetable set by others, sitting in meetings and panicking they will not end in time for the nursery pick up...
By the time I had my youngest I was a senior associate. I run my own caseload and set my own appointments. I can work from home when I need to. It's been a million times easier this time around.

HGV driver here. In theory, low on the totem pole, wear uniform, etc etc.
In practice, I work through an agency so I can earn slightly more than the staffers, and I booked my days around DD when she was dependent. Now it's DGS so Dad and DD can work and attend uni. DW manages a care home so she's less flexible, and is also the higher earner. Seems to work.

Good points above. Seniority usually gives you power. It obviously depends on the job. If you are doing ope heart surgery or presenting a case in court you can't just up and leave. Some of these jobs require a lot of hours simply because the job takes those hours. Others don't.

When my son was a postman for royal mail for 3 years we had the slightly funny situation where my daughters and I in fairly good legal jobs but able to pick our holidays were fitting holidays around a post man who earned a tiny fraction of what any of us earned.

Another example is teaching - my children's father could not just leave school to attend our children's Christmas nativity songs (in day time) whereas I could fix my hours around that (even though I earned 10x what he did at one point). On the other hand he had school holidays but it's not flexible other than that in teaching.

It's easier now I am older as people are saying. Some lawyer (male, looks about 70 although I suppose he might have 3 babies at home and use a nursery but unlikely) wanted to start a meeting on a Friday afternoon. I just said mornings are much better for me and we are starting it in the morning thankfully. So the chances it goes over late on Friday are fewer. Actually for the first time in 33 years I don't have children at home (twins just left for university) so I don't have a Friday evening problem except I know I work badly when I'm tired and who wants to work late on a Friday anyway when there is no need?

yes

No, not in law or medicine. Very inflexible then.

Or teaching. Think it depends on the job. I know several mums who have taken lower paid jobs as they more flexible around children so id say itwas the otherway.

"People in lower paid jobs are less likely to have proven themselves independent, self-managing, responsible individuals"

Lots of low paid jobs where you have to do exactly that. Managing a small retail shop is low paid. But with lots of responsibility and self management.

Not in the UK, but a friend of mine is late home every single Friday because his boss and his boss insist on having a meeting at 4pm every Friday which overruns, and he's then expected to produce a report on the meeting.

I asked him why it couldn't take place earlier, or the report could be filed by Monday lunchtime, but he says they refuse that.

And this is in a country with a more caring attitude towards workers than the UK has.

I don't know exactly what he does, except that it's related to project management. He's not a junior employee by any means.

But I think this view "People in lower paid jobs are less likely to have proven themselves independent, self-managing, responsible individuals" is unfortunately a commonly held one. If you don't earn a lot of money, you are thick and stupid. You see it with the tales on here of people who are overheard telling their kids they need to work hard at school or they'll end up working on the checkout at the supermarket.

@Timeywimey8

'Thick' and 'stupid' are not synonymous with the words I used.

What low paid jobs give you the opportunity to prove those skills which I mentioned?

Backoffsunshine - you say "Are you going to attempt to use a threadbare and illogical argument that toxic masculinity with men at the top, having family-unfriendly conditions, is keeping women down?"

Are you REALLY arguing that the above isn't the case?! Hilarious.

When particular staff have skills that are very scarse, employers have to offer more flexible conditions in order to hang on to them. So yes, true !

No not true. Does not happen in the NHS

The societal shift to encourage more family friendly working hours would mean society reversing the 24hour society trend.
So back to shops only open 9-5 Mon-Fri and Saturday mornings; A&E and OOH GPs only being for real emergencies not a sore throat that isn't shifting; not wanting 24 hour deliveries so people aren't driving all night with parcels.
You can't have more jobs with family friendly hours and still have the services requiring people to work evenings, nights and weekends.

I work in a low paid job (call centre, minimum wage plus commission) and it's completely family friendly. I work 10-2 and am allowed unpaid leave whenever I need it, which luckily is not often. Probably because so many people hate it and staff turnover is high.

My husbands job is high pay high responsibility and he never knows which country he'll be in from one week to the next. He has very good flexibility in between but pointless when he's away for two weeks unexpectedly. I can never book anything. I used to have a high paid senior roles and worked one day a week from home but was working well into the night on those days.
Sometimes it's actually a mindset as well. When I started out on minimum wage jobs no way I'd be working into the night for nothing. I earned my career so was willing to work very long hours to keep it going.
I couldn't expect the flexibility I was given when a senior in my junior roles partly because there were ten to the penny of juniors but much less qualified seniors, so they could treat juniors how they wanted but as a senior I knew I could quit and get a job somewhere else quite quickly and my bosses knew it too. Saying that I always had to push for flexible working they didn't just give it out for nothing.

Defo true.

I know people in fairly high paid jobs in Government and Law, who have a free creche, 30 days paid holiday a year PLUS all bank holidays, gold plated pension plans, a private healthcare plan, and very strong maternity packages, and also full pay when they're off sick. They also have VERY flexible working hours (they can work between 7am and 7pm - so they can do 7am til 2.30pm with half an hour lunch.

Others I know who work for minimum pay at a certain supermarket, get fuck-all perks at work, (except first dibs at the stale bread that they can get for 25p at the end of the day,) no pay if they're off sick, and a basic 20 days leave per year. And they most definitely do NOT have a free creche, and a private healthcare plan!

I worked in Local Government for years and never heard of anyone getting a free creche. Is this people who work at the Houses of Parliament?

Essentially, people on the bottom rung put up with crap pay & conditions because they are desperate. They (and I include myself in this) often cannot afford to leave their job as they cannot find another one, and leaving with a firm job offer is a frightening prospect, especially if you have children. A lot of companies gradually change working conditions, move offices to out of town so you can't easily get there, do not award annual pay increases, tighten regulations & increase monitoring of everything that staff do, do not invest in training for employees, etc, etc... until what was once a good job with a competitive salary & family friendly conditions, is now dreadful & you're trapped.

When I recently asked to amend my working hours to finish earlier so that I can collect my 5y/o DD from after school club, they refused. Despite knowing that my DH cannot collect her, & we have no-one else available on a regular basis. "Not our problem", they said.

tippz, tell us more about the government department with a free creche and private healthcare? Brasty, no, you pay for the nursery to which you refer.

The societal shift to encourage more family friendly working hours would mean society reversing the 24hour society trend

Conversely I think having 24h shops can be family friendly - a parent can pick up shifts in the evenings or night to minimise child care if the other parent works days. Pretty tough tho.

LadyLapsang Thanks, then I don't think any Government Department gives a free creche. A very few places have a creche, but you pay for it. The only place I know that has one, it is run by a private company. So you pay the going rate, the benefit is that it is on site, so you can go and see your DCs during lunch break. That is a great benefit admittedly, but not one that is costing the taxpayer anything.

LegoCaltrops I had a similar issue in the NHS. After years of making us work Mon-Fri 9-5:30 with no flexibility, they decided we should work shifts anywhere between 7am and 9pm, Mon-Sat. And instead of just working at the hospital we worked at, we had to be able to work at other sites, up to 30 miles away. When those of us with children said that would be impossible with childcare, we were told to 'get better childcare'. Their words.
I've no idea what happened in the end though, as I had thoroughly had enough by that point & left for a far better job in industry.