Calling lawyers/professionals.. soon to be trainee solicitor needs your advice!

[Orelia]

I have a DC who will shortly be starting school. I am a single parent.

I secured a training contract with a large firm through a vac scheme. The training contract commences soon and I need your advice. During my time on the vac scheme (which lead to the offer of a training contract) I did not officially disclose the fact that I had a DC:

i) family talk can be seen as unprofessional and it is irrelevant to my ability to carry out the job. ii) I had cast iron grandparent childcare arranged so that I was able to participate 100% in the scheme to give me the best possible chance. iii) discrimination does exist and I want to be considered as a serious contender.

I did become friendly with some people I met during the vac scheme who I subsequently told, but HR dept etc do not know.

I am unsure of the best way to go about disclosing that I have a DC. As the start date approaches, I am
becoming a bit anxious. Is it unrealistic to hope that there might be some flexibility on doing all nighters/ family friendliness? I will be able to call on grandparent support for working extra late, however they would ideally have notice of this in advance.

My ideal arrangement would be to be able to be able to leave the office at 530/6 and then work on things from home in the evening. Then have it prearranged to work later say 2 days per week? But I realise that this is probably an arrangement suited to individuals that are established in their career.

I know that the role of a trainee is to be on hand whenever willing to do whatever with a cheery smile, and of course I am willing to do that. However, I do have to be realistic with my responsibilities. I don't want to let anybody down: work or DC etc.

I have thought that avoiding corporate seats might be a good idea (which is a shame bc I am very interested in this area) given that the nature of the work demands late nights.

Who should I talk to? HR? Individual seat supervisors? Should I do this before starting or during the initial week/induction meetings? The last thing I want is to seem like I'm shirking responsibility the minute I walk through the door. I can't tell you how delighted and excited I am to have this job and desperately want to handle this as best as possible.

Thank you for reading.

"My ideal arrangement would be to be able to be able to leave the office at 530/6 and then work on things from home in the evening. Then have it prearranged to work later say 2 days per week? But I realise that this is probably an arrangement suited to individuals that are established in their career."

As you rightly identify, to get that sort of flexibility in a very busy job, you need to be established, valuable and trusted. I can't see you getting that from day one. Plus the other problem I can see is the "prearranged" working later. That's not going to work as a trainee, or even later on. Things come in and need dealing with and you can't predict when that will be in order to "prearrange" it.

If your DC is coming up school age I would agree with the recommendation for an au pair.

I practiced for over 20 years as a solicitor, nothing as grand as a city law firm ( Local Authority and High Street) It was only the criminal defence work that kept me out all hours, the family and property lawyers all went home at 5. I would not volunteer anything at all about your family/child it is none of their business unless you are asking for concessions (bad idea) I work in a very different sector now but I always know that it is the staff who want to tell me all about their children that are going to cause problems over availability.
HR should ask you about relations in a confidential way for pensions/insurance/health cover once you have started.

Although I did not work in such a pressured environment I did make it a rule that my children would never impinge on my work, so I never attended sports day or prize givings and my nanny took DS1 to hospital when he fell into the fireplace and cut his forehead. That is the way it is. Once you are qualified you might be able to find something that will fit in better, eventually I worked freelance and that was well paid and I could pick and chose a bit more.

I did my training contract at a large international firm with two young kids and I know of at least one other female trainee with kids (I suspect a few of the older male trainees had kids as well, I just can't remember). I didn't know any single parents though (or at least not that I was aware of, we have a lot of trainees every year).

Different firms have different attitudes to this and in fact, with multi-office firms, different offices have different attitudes. Plus different supervisors and departments (you get my drift).

Working hours are going to depend on your firm. I couldn't have done my training contract without rock solid all hours childcare (and I still couldn't do my job without it). Some regional firms are more 9-6 but I suspect there will be a bit of random lates at trainee level in any large firm. You need to make sure you have childcare in place. Can you parents agree to help at random for the first month or so until you have the lay of the land a bit and then you can work out what you need? There is no point asking HR, they actually almost certainly either won't be honest or won't actually know the true position.

You may find that in practice your plan can generally work (although there will be busy times where it can't) but you absolutely need to make sure you're covered for at least the first month. Do you have any contacts with current trainees? If so, I'd just ask for a heads up on how the hours work out in reality and how difficult it would be keeping to a regular evening commitment.

No one's going to sack you for wanting/needing to leave at 5.30 every day but getting an NQ job is competitive and you won't be the preferred candidate if you can't work as flexibly as others. If you're brilliant that might not matter but it'll be something that works against you. That's just life - it's a long hours profession that pays well because it expects a lot of people.

A lot depends on which firm it is, but for what its worth I do not believe for a second that my firm would take a training contract offered away because someone had disclosed they were a single parent and were asking on what realistic working hours were so that they could ensure that their childcare was solid. Asking whether you can leave at 5.30 most days is wouldn't go down well, mainly because I'd be questioning whether you actually understood what you were getting into.

That's at a 'we want to be seen as really friendly and inclusive' silver circle firm though. I'm also pretty certain I didn't get a job from an MC firm because I mentioned my kids at interview (the interviewer pushed on it, I didn't spend ages talking about my kids!).

Could an au pair work for you? Someone who bookends your day? A massive commute is hell when you're a parent.

Are you based in London or the regions? When I did my training contract at a large international firm there were a few trainees with children and it was fine. One actually had her second baby during the TC and was offered a job on qualification. Stay quiet until you sign your contract. You will likely need to address your expectations around flexibility as it realistically doesn't happen for trainees. Urgent work crops up at the last minute and you'll be expected to be around. If you can try and line up childcare to be on hand at short notice that will help. Avoid corporate, projects and banking. Employment and commercial can often work long hours too particularly when there's tribunals/ hearings taking place. If you can come into work early and make your hours up then it will probably help. Good luck.

Thank you to everyone for their responses so far. This is the first time I've posted on here (usually just lurking) and am glad I did. The stories of people who have made it work are encouraging!

To answer a couple of questions. The firm is not in London, it's regional. It is a large all service commercial firm though.

Au pair is a potential option but I feel that adding one into the mix right now with DC about to start school, me just starting new job, potential moving house, might be stressful. I think it is a good idea a bit further down the line when i have a feel for how work will be.
That way I'd be able to give a more realistic outline of hours required from Au pair too, because at the moment it's uncertain.

I have got contact with some trainees and their reports on hours have varied massively depending on their seat.

To those who think I should not mention having DC at all (which was the tack I took on vac scheme), does that extend to colleagues who may be trying to befriend you or only superiors? Before someone says that I am naive - I realise the difference between networking and pleasantaries/professional boundaries. However, it is the type of firm where there are lunches/late evenings/team building activities/trainee nights out where small talk is exchanged. I probably should not care what anyone thinks of me, but I would just hate it to seem like I was concealing DC or being dishonest somehow. Or should I just grow a thicker skin and not care?

Personally I would find it odd if someone I was working with or managing didn't tell me they have kids. And I have always tried to be sympathetic to requests to leave when having to look after children. I certainly wouldn't expect them to stay in the office if their child was in hospital. If a firm can't manage occasional staff absences they it's not a great firm anyway imo.

Yes I was going to say just think of how you would cope if someone sent you an email at 4.30 wanting a response to go out that same day - is your childcare such that your parents could pick up your child at such short notice? And also the life of a trainee is quite sociable so would you be prepared to be the one that didn't join ad hoc post work drinks? You might be expected to attend marketing events after work - I would expect most of these to be planned, but some might be that others in the team drop out at last minute and expectations are on the trainees to pad out numbers. I never knew any trainees who did have children but that doesn't mean to say that you can't make it work - just think of two / three years of sacrifice for longer achievement and benefits for you and your child. I would wait and see what the dynamics of your team and supervising partner are and just go in for the first month at least of being super flexible - you might have to maintain that for the rest of your seat but seats don't last forever. I only worked with a solicitor who had children when I was pq and there were numerous occasions when she had to pull in grandparental favours to cover after-school club collection or just say no when unrealistic deadlines were dumped on her at the last minute - eyes were definitely rolled when she walked out at 5.30/6 but then guess what, the supervising partner then had her own child and suddenly she was the one walking out at 5 and we were just expected to accept it and pick up her work if anything came in once she'd left. But I guess that's one of the benefits of being a partner.

I see your point aliceinwanderland

As a boss would you prefer your new trainee ask to speak to you to say that they have a DC from the outset e.g. "I thought I should let you know I have a DC"..
Or that they were more casual and just mentioned it in passing during inevitable small talk.. say about weekend plans?

Justfivemoreminutesplease you raise important points.

The social side is another thing I'll need to figure out. During the vac scheme there were often catered lunchtime seminars etc. and also "optional" evening networking events I didn't get the feeling I could not go to. I think there is also a strong emphasis on trainees getting involved with Grad recruitment.
That's before the social stuff, so yeah it's more than just the desk hours to contend with.

I think my priority will have to be on the networking events that will help me progress, rather than the boozy nights with the other trainees. There will be enough xmas parties etc for socialising. I'll have to find a balance somehow but spending hours at pubs on a regular basis isnt really my bag.

No I get that, but just be aware if all of the trainees are going out together and you're the only one who isn't, it might naturally become a talking point as to where you are. Nothing to have to defend, but something to be aware of. And if of course it depends where abouts you are based - I trained in the City where everyone got the tube to work, so going out for post work drinks became the norm. I then left London and went to work in another city where everyone drove to work so post work drinks became a well planned once in a while event. But seriously, I'm sure you will figure it all out - just try not to get discouraged if you have a childcare wobble and keep on thinking of the longer picture. You've done the hardest bit in securing a tc

I'd probably expect it to come out in the first week or so if someone had kids. I suggest you don't go in too heavy handed about it - as that might sound like you expect special favours. Depending on your partner you might get an intro chat for an hour or so and that might be a good time to mention it.

I also wouldn't worry about the social side of being a trainee. I spent many any hours in the pub and while it was fun it never helped my career. I also very rarely went out with clients. You can have a good rapport with clients without getting pissed with them. Far better to be the one with the clear head who can actually get the deal completed!

I work at a large full service regional and I would casually mention it to your supervisor or training principal, when you start but certainly not in the context of working hours, but as a getting to know you type thing.

I only know of one person who did their TC when having kids and she accepted that her DC had to take a backseat during that time and her DH and family had to pick up the slack. She ended up qualifying in to a very reactive contentious practice area where the hours are unpredictable and so I think this has continued but what's the point of doing a TC if you're going to end up qualifying in to an area that doesn't make work enjoyable/the sacrifices worth it?

FWIW, in our firm, the clin neg solicitors have the best work life balance in terms of working hours and their longer hours tend to be easier to plan, as it's usually a trial etc.

Thank you all v much for the helpful advice. Really appreciate it.

Is your heart set on a career in commercial type law? have they paid your training etc?
Just asking because there are far more family friendly options out there.

Definitely be honest and upfront from the start about having a child though.

@Orelia As a boss would you prefer your new trainee ask to speak to you to say that they have a DC from the outset e.g. "I thought I should let you know I have a DC"..

I think that would sound weird and make it far bigger an issue that it needs to be/should be.

Or that they were more casual and just mentioned it in passing during inevitable small talk.. say about weekend plans?

This. Casually and easily, as if they already knew, a la:

Boss: "...got any nice plans for the weekend?"
Orelia: "...yes, I'm taking the kids to to do . Should be great fun. You?"

Then next time throw a name in, refer to grandparents etc, rather than "kids" and then it just becomes part of life.

I work for a large regional corporate/commercial firm and have two DC. I didn't mention it at interview, but I mentioned it towards the end of my first week. My boss was surprised only because she thought I was younger than I am. I found corporate difficult with a young child as DH and I don't have any additional childcare support so we were always tied to childminder pick up times, but am lucky to work for a firm that is as family friendly as possible. I moved practice areas within the firm after a couple of years and much prefer what I do now which is property based.

I think as a trainee you'll be expected to get involved in networking, seminars, social events etc - the trainees at our firm are expected to be involved in pretty much everything. These tend to be after office hours so might be more difficult for you.

I agree that flexible working hours, working from home etc are much more likely once your career is more established, your work is valued and you're trusted.

FWIW at my firm there are always some people who work late depending on workload, but I would say the majority of people are usually gone by 6, and there's only usually a few stragglers after 6.30 unless corporate have completions on. The non-corporate trainees are usually away by 6. A lot of people work from home in the evenings though, which trainees can do as well.

Good luck!

Don't hide the fact you have a child. Imagine how odd that would look when it finally comes out. Increasingly trainees don't fit into the straight school-uni-lawschool-training contract bracket (although if you do and you've managed all that with a 4 year old wow!). Provided you don't make having a child an excuse why you can't give as much as others no one is going to care (and it might actually give you something in common with some of the more senior lawyers). You do need to make sure you don't set yourself apart from your cohort in terms of work social events but no one has to go to regular drinks every week. In a large region I'm guessing a lot of people will be driving to work anyway so you probably have an excuse there.

Don't make it a big thing, just mention it if it comes up in conversation - in the same way you would do with anyone else. Yes work is work but people do also tend to mention their lives outside of work in work.

I still find it very unlikely that any major regional would find an excuse to retract a training contract because someone had a child and so I just don't think this is something you need to worry about now you have the offer. One of the reason people chose to train in the regions is usually for the work-life balance and firms tend to sell themselves on this. Warning though, you might find yourself posted around as part of the 'oh aren't we diverse and accepting' propaganda. This happened to a family member who was a career changer and a trainee in her 40s/50s (and has happened to me, although to a lesser extent).

Op you won't be the only one in your department with children and all of the women find it tough. In my department all of the men seem to be married to ex lawyers who now stay at home to iron their shirts and look after their children .

No one is going to withdraw your training contract. You don't need to make a big deal of it in my opinion.

Long hours are unfortunately part of a legal career particularly if you are chasing the cash. The good news is that in a few years you will be able to afford
The nanny you need to do your job!

Transactional law is very pressurised and client demands mean long and often unpredictable hours. I have lost count of the number of times I have told my dh I will be home early (meaning 7) and ended up walking in the door at gone 11.

There is more flex as you get more qualified and even in corporate I sometimes walk out the door at 5 but I am more in control of my workload now (and may well have been in he office past midnight the previous 3 nights). Also corporate is the most up and down area, when you finish a deal you can be very quiet until the next one gets going. Or you could have 3 flat out all at the same one.

My firm is more traditional but even it is having to get to grips with flexible working and more family friendly practices - at least in name. It all goes out the window when you are needed though as client demands come first.

A large firm will have a lot of corporate support work so you won't necessarily escape the corporate deals. Personally I wouldn't actively avoid a corporate seat - it's only 6 months of your training and it's very good grounding into lots of different legal areas.

Just saw this thread and have read it to my husband who is a corporate partner in a large regional firm (and I am an ex lawyer who stays at home to iron his shirts and look after children as referred to by burning high ). We are now wondering if maybe you're joining his firm. PM if you're brave enough to tell me privately the city!

He would rather a trainee told him from the outset that they had a child but that this wouldn't impact negatively on their seat but they would need as much notice as possible if a late night was required so that childcare could be sorted.

He said he wouldn't bother with telling HR either just each seat supervisor as you join that department.

Most of his lawyers leaves to go home between 6 and 7 on a normal night.

A top tip would be not to leave things to be checked until last minute if they need getting out or if they have been asked for by close of business on a certain date in case there are amendments to be made.

Ask also if there is the possibility to login and work remotely from home.

Don't give up on corporate completely. Definitely talk to your supervisor. There may be some midnight finishes but there really aren't many (if any) over-nighters these days because of technology.

Good luck.

NeverTwerk yes, I'm excited by commercial law and I pursued this. It took years to build up to. I am committed to the training contract.

Shots thank you, I'll try that.

Millie That's helpful to know. It's good to hear that people generally leave at that time. Given that it's not a MC city firm I'm hoping mine will generally be the same.

AllTheBest i'll inbox you!

Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. I really appreciate that you've taken time to give your thoughts. I think the most important thing will be to have cast iron arrangements during the initial weeks until I find my feet. And accept that for 2 years it'll be full on with the extra social/networking things. but once I qualify, hopefully managing my own time will be more of a possibility...depending on the dept?!

Another thing thats helped me with this post is reminding me that many of the partners/associates will also have families of their own. Again I wouldn't expect that to make them sympathetic but it's not so alien to them?!? I had sort of built things up in my head I think

I'm not sure who gave you the whole 'don't tell anyone you have a child' talk pre-vac scheme but I do think you've been building it up a bit. It's rare to be a lone parent at trainee level but it's not unknown and it's certainly not that rare as you get more senior. If a firm wouldn't offer you a training contract just because you have a dc then to be honest that's probably not a firm you want to work for.

With the MC firm I got rejected by, I look at it now and realise that I had a lucky escape as actually it would have killed me (issue wasn't just having young dcs) so whilst they shouldn't have rejected me for that, I'm very glad I didn't get the job!

Law is long hours but in some way it's great with children if you can get over that because it's also generally very flexible. Once you have an employer's trust (which is realistically post trainee and even NQ level), there are normally not issues attending events in working hours etc. They expect a lot from you but that tends to work both ways in my experience. The more experienced you get, the more control you have over hours as well. I work in a non-corporate transactional area of law also renowned for very long hours. It is very long hours but honestly now 90% of the time I know when they're coming. There are still days when I have nothing to do until 5pm and then an urgent email hits but that's fairly rare now. At the junior levels the issue tends to be supervisors not adequately briefing trainees/NQs on workflows.

I remember one transaction I was involved in as a trainee and saying to my supervisor afterwards 'I've really struggled to keep up with the random demands for documents' at which stage I was then forwarded the transaction timetable which had been available all along!

That's a really good to know that transaction timetables exist!

Re not mentioning DS, basically I wanted to have a fair shot of them getting to know me and my abilities without my personal life being a factor.

Bearing in mind how competitive it is... Even getting through psychometric testing to interview for TC is an achievement these days. Many of my childless peers had trouble getting on vac schemes at all, never mind being offered TC at their first choice firm. To risk potentially jeopardising it was not something I felt able to do..

I'd never have outright lied though if asked directly, I deliberately didnt apply to firms that require intl travel and ask if you have dependents on the app form. If I was moving firm for an NQ post though I would feel less nervous about it coming up though, its a far stronger position once your qualified.

Need to figure out the best way to communicate to seat supervisors that notice on v late nights would be great if possible, without seeming like I'm gonna be a letdown/inflexible!