Urgent help needed with writing an appeal letter after flexible application was rejected :(

[Coriander73]

Help needed!! Could anyone be so kind as to give me some input as to how I'd go about drafting a letter appealing against company decision to reject my application for flexible working?? Yours...very deflated...

They have given a crap response, literally copying word for word three of the allowed reasons for turning down an application. They have a duty to justify it and explain the business grounds too. So they should be saying "because XYZ".

In writing, in 14 days of you receiving the decision something along the lines of

"i wish to appeal against your decision not to grant my request under my application for flexible working. You have not provided justifiable business grounds for turning down my request. My reasons for appeal are

1. I believe that the work i would normally carry out during the times i am requesting not to work could be reorganised by other staff. To manage this I suggest......(add how you think it could work)

1. There has not been a difficulty in recruiting additional staff as an attempt has not even been made. Should you find that you are unable to reorganise the work then I am confident that someone else could be recruited as a job share partner if a recruitment process was carried out. I would suggest the following ........... (you then need to suggest what hours they would work, how you would handover to each other etc)

1. I don't believe customer demands won't be met as ......(add here, for example that your duties are not time critical, that you are not customer facing, that other staff work the hours you are not there to cover the phones/queries plus whatever else you think)

You need to provide them with positive solutions to what they see as issues. You need to sell it to them really.

An alternitive is to ask them for a 3 month trial period to see if your suggestions work. They would be pretty unreasonable to turn that down.

Thank you CK.

I spoke to the employment lawyer today who said that she thought we'd find it hard to get this to tribunal. I feel really let down...& gobsmacked as I'm convinced there is more than a case to answer. I am still drafting my appeal letter (thanks for all your help everyone) & see how we go from there.

Chocolate - that's really good! I'm going to keep this as I have a feeling I'll need it too!

Coriander - soz to hear what lawyer said..but hey, people can be wrong sometimes so think positive and get writing a stunning letter of appeal for us to applaud and show your work who is calling the shots!

Niks

I'm thinking of getting a second opinion. I can't help but think that they're wrong on this. I know I know sod all about employment law but it just amazes me that she thinks we don't have enough to get to tribunal etc. DH says not to...says what will I achieve etc. I'm just hugely frustrated...hugely....why do they think they can get away with treating people like this?

Get a second opinion...I would..can't do any harm can it! Plus it would give focus to your anger - I can see that you are really upset about it. Toally understand why though - shitty how women get treated when going back to work. Equal rights! Pah!

Truely gutted by it all. I have been there for 7 years, given my all, achieved year on year, gone that bit extra...& you ask yourself what for??? What should Mothers get such a raw deal?

Why not ask your husband to make a flexbile working request and not damage your own career. Make men pay really and you just back to full time work which is probably better for women and your family too. Part time is really the worst of all worlds anyway so they're doing you a favour by turning the request down. The more men who apply for flexible working and not their wives the better and it then makes it easier and a sexually neutral thing and employers don't think - if she's female she'll make a request and if he's male he won't. Also his employers might be more amenable to it.

Part time isnt' the worst of all worlds at all. Its fantastic in my view.

If being turned down is so awful for someone - how can it be doing them a favour. This is where employers potentially lose good staff.

Its wrong for people to assume they will get what they want when they put in a request under flexible working however the business should have a genuine and robust business reason to turn it down. If it isn't going to affect them under the 8 headings then they should grant the request.

In an ideal world, more men asking for part time working would be fantastic - I'm in favour of it but sadly, we still live in a world where the gender pay gap is such that it makes more sense for the men to be the primary breadwinner. My hubby earns nearly 20k more than me so for him to go part time, just isn't financially possible for us. I'm happy going back part time though and for me to be DS's primary carer because I couldn't be apart from him too much - even if it was his dad looking after him!

I just wish companies would stop hiding behind the oh we are so happy to support working mums crap because a lot of them clearly aren't and I'd much rather they came out with it and were honest instead of hiding behind HR propaganda!!!

It's as much a father's issue as a mother';s issue. Fathers have children and women often earn more than men and it makes sense the father stays home. Women seem to choose to marry men who earn more which seems to be a big part of the problem. If more often than not women married men who earned less more men would be the ones making the requests and things would be easier. Every woman who makes a flexible working request arguably damages the cause of women in a sense.

Well said Nikki76 !

Totally agree with you Nikki!!! I have been the breadwinner in my marriage for the past 10 years - earning at times approx £30k more than DH. I am the one who wants part time not DH. He has said that as much as he loves the children it's not for him...he needs to work. Our lifestyle & standard of living is going to change massively but we're prepared for that if it gives me what I need...more time with my children who (& sorry to use a cliche) are growing up too fast.

Xenia, re SAHH, I think the vast majority would never entertain the idea like us women purely because they just don't have that same burning emotional tie / attachment (what ever you want to call it) as us Mothers. My DH is just the most fantastic Father but he's honest enough to admit that he couldn't & wouldn't go part time to spend more time at home - even if that is going to mean we have a lot less money coming in (I appealed today & will probably end up resigning when I go back next week)

So why don't I have that burning emotional tie and some other working mothers and presumably most working fathers, but some stay at home mother's do? Is it conditioning as children?> Society or is it innate in some women but not others? And if innate is it hormonal or bred into them, genetic? Why do I like many father know it's not for me and after 2 - 3 hours with very small chidlren find it a bit boring, hard work and not for me and other mothers love it and want to stay home? I wonder what makes us as we are?

It's a mixture of things. I believe there are hormonal differences which actually make a mother more than father more likely to feel that very intense, passionate emotion for their child. It doesn't mean the father loves the child any less though. I also think social conditioning plays a huge factor - it is comparatively rare for a father to give up work or even go part time, which reinforces the expectation that it's women who will be the main carers. It's to a degree a natural human instinct to feel threatened by people who have a different view to yourself, and therefore people set up entrenched positions. My ideal world would be one where there's simply a better balance - its not about all or nothing, parents working every hour god made, or not working at all. I honestly believe most children thrive on living with two parents who aren't afraid to explore both roles - ie doing the hands on caring and nurturing, and having a stake in wider society by working outside the home.

My sister is a teacher and she has always said that if she had a baby, she would go back to work and her husband would stay home to look after the children. This isnt just because my sister earns more, at the moment, my sister doesn't see herself as able to stay at home all day. Mind you, that could well change if she has children.

It all depends on the person - some women love their children to bits but they have to work full time or they couldn't cope, others prefer to work part time and some not at all - its up to what suits the individual and I would never judge anyone for what they choose to do - its their choice.

Xenia - my husband and I started off on nearly the same pay scale - interestingly enough, I earnt more than him in the beginning. As time went on, he's gradually moved up within his role and got a big promotion. I moved up a degree and it seemed to stop there....got to stage where I had to choose between giving my all to the company and majorly kissing arse for the next few years to be considered for a management role (its a sad fact that the people who stay late, agree with all what management say etc are more often than not the ones that get promoted) or trying for a baby.

Funnily enough, a new person started just before I got pregnant and during my pregnancy I trained him on all what I knew....just after I had the baby, he got promoted to a role that they told me wouldn't be available as budget etc....its a sad but true fact - there is a gender gap! He was a kiss arse though so that helped him a lot!!

... yes but it's partly where there are more female millionaires under 40 than men because they leave if they face that, set up on their own and do miles better anyway (if they want to put in those hours etc).

So if women will always mostly want to go part time and not work it makes it hard for women like me who don't have that urge, who have in effect a father's normal feelings - adore the chidlren, happy to see them a few hours a day but still a good parent, harder for us because it gets assumed at work we will be like other women just as it's harder for those fathers who want to request part time working. Anyway most of us manage some compromise that works and many people choose not to have children anyway.

Xenia - I can see your point...most people don't think twice when a man stays working full time with a child, but if a woman does it, then the judgement starts! I was reading about a female jounalist a while back and she said she got sooo much grief for being posted abroad in dangerous places because she was a mum and had a child to think of, but loads of male journalists don't get that sort of grief when they are reporting from the field!

I do think the balance has to shift to a point where the care provided is equal but its going to take a long time! Men don't seem to be that fussed about part time working - I asked my DH to enquire about leaving early on Friday's - around 4pm or so, so we could have a nice long sort of weekend - has he done it - no...that reminds me..am off to nag him now

I have a meeting next Wed to discuss my appeal....still think they are going to say no but at least I get another say....

Good luck, really really prepare (know you will anyway) and sell it to them how you can manage the hours you have requested

Hi everyone - meant to come on earlier in the week but it's just been a tough old dew days. Started back last Monday & had my appeal heard on Wednesday. I gave it my best shot - seemed to go better than the first meeting - the senior HR manager heard me go on etc & he seemed more willing to listen & did keep saying you have made a valid point etc but then "I have to look after the business" (!!).....don't really know how it's going to pan out...part of me just wants to resign & have a complete career change but then I think I don't want them to win & I have to keep fighting..

To those of you that helped me I just wanted to let you know that I've resigned. I did appeal but after taking their time getting back to me they communicated that they were indeed upholding their original decision! I am deflated, sad & annoyed but looking forward to the future even though we're going to be much worse off financially speaking, but I'm assuming much happier?!! For the first time in 8 years I have to do my CV & I just don't know where to start...!

Sorry to hear it came to that - unfortunately thats the way it is sometimes. If a business does have a valid ground/s for turning someone down then so be it.

You sound as though you are acting gracefully despite how you feel - well done for that as you are obviously disappointed.

Good luck in what you do next. There are loads of good websites that show sample CV's and point you in the right direction. If you do a search on my name I have posted on threads about that before so you may come across some of the links. Main points are to start with a good summary followed by a bullet point section of "key skills" section then employment history. Be concise, try not to go over 2-3 pages, use less info on older jobs etc. Also use good quality white paper when you send it to someone.

Coriander sorry to hear what happened, same thing happened to me last year and I too ended up resigning (infact when i read your post I did wonder if you worked for the same company as me!) I'm now applying for p/t job share roles (fingers crossed) but enjoying being a sahm also, I do 8hrs in a shop but I don't really call it work and I finish there at the end of the month.

Hope everything works out for you

I would not have resigned - you can still claim constructive dismissal. I don't see why women should just be forced to walk away from their careers.

From what I have read they never dealt with your application correctly - they gave no proper reasons. what reasons did you get from the appeal? If they are still not proper reasons the whole process has not been done properly. Raise a grivance and/or claim constructive dismissal at tribunal and indirect sex discrimination (which it is). you can do this yourself. Have you spoken to working families (number on web) - they are very helpful at chatting through if what has been done is correct.

I can't believe the concensus here is they have n't done this correctly at all but just resign and look for another job.

Yes, I know but the support isn't there & what's to say if they did give me part time they wouldn't make my life a living hell? I am truely peeved & annoyed with it all & I haven't ruled out getting a second opinion from another employment lawyer but I don't know whether I have the energy anymore. Yes, why should I walk away, I've been here for 8 years, but I just don't know if I've got it in me anymore......one of the reasons they give is that due to on going post merger proceedures (we've just been taken over by multinational company) they need me full time as to not "hinder" the excellent relationship I have with my clients...well a) they are all rather saddened by my departure & b) I'm going, so what are they going to do?........I have no idea what I am going to do.....quite scary really....I have thought I'd go to the press with this as if you knew who I worked for...it's really unbelievable..