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Original poster

Is this work situation fair or normal? Unpaid overtime & no sick pay

23 replies

mzlouise · 13/07/2017 08:45

I'm expected to work quite a lot of unpaid overtime in my job, which I dont mind and am used to with all jobs I've had. However, I was forced recently to take a few days off sick and wasn't paid for them - my monthly salary was docked.

I was made redundant from my last job so hadn't much choice other to accept the terms of this one as I was pretty desperate. But, every job I've had before there has been some leeway in terms of working unpaid overtime and flexibility with sick days. I hardly take any and was very obviously genuinely ill (and I might add took phone calls and responded to emails from my sick bed).

I'm feeling very demoralised as I feel it's very unfair to expect it both ways in the company's favour. Can anyone tell me if this is normal practice?

OP posts:
Spam88 · 13/07/2017 08:54

I know some people who don't get anything other than statutory sick pay. I wouldn't generally expect these to be the same jobs that reasonably expect you to do unpaid overtime (generally more senior/higher paid roles). Although where overtime is unpaid you should be getting time in lieu instead.

Wondermoomin · 13/07/2017 09:21

Spam that's not true, you don't necessarily get time off in lieu if you're not being paid overtime.

What kind of job is it? If it's a professional job (accountant, solicitor for example) you would not expect to be paid overtime but you would expect enhanced (occupational) sick pay not just SSP - because employers generally have to be quite competitive in offering those sorts of contract terms to the point where it's pretty standard in professions.

Original poster
mzlouise · 13/07/2017 09:39

Yes, it's a management/professional job. But I'm not officially "senior management" who do get enhanced benefits. But I'm in charge of a department that requires a fair amount of out of hours attention to allow others in the company to continue doing their job.

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Wondermoomin · 13/07/2017 09:42

So what does your contract say about sick pay and overtime? What do the policies say about sick pay and overtime for your grade, and at what grade does OSP become part of your package? Also if it's a newish job perhaps you haven't built up required service for OSP?

BritInUS1 · 13/07/2017 09:43

Look at your contract, they should adhere to the contract you signed x

AnnieOH1 · 13/07/2017 09:47

When you say you do overtime is it that you're coming in early and leaving late by your own choice? Or is it literally boss comes in at 4:55 and says this needs doing tonight get home at midnight type situation?

I ask because the first I have encountered before, an employee chose to come in early and leave slightly late because, and I quote, he "didn't like traffic". So he would come in at 7:30 for a 9am start, eat breakfast and get a head start on the day. Similarly he would hang back doing a few jobs and leave at 6. The thing is though his production was no more for the sake of the extra 2.5 hours a day he alleged he was putting in than I would have expected from someone in at 9 and out at 5.

If it is the latter could it simply be that HR/accounts aren't aware you should be banking TOIL hours due to it not officially being your responsibility?

I would be speaking to my boss

Original poster
mzlouise · 13/07/2017 09:48

Been there over 2 years - contract does state that reasonable over time. No mention of sick pay though but the staff handbook (which I didn't get until a few weeks in to the job) says 4 days sick only will be paid per year. I took a full week off so was docked 1 days pay.

I know they can do it, but I wanted to find out if this was normal practice as I've never experienced this arrangement before and it seems unfair.

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 13/07/2017 09:49

Unpaid overtime is fairly common. There is no problem provided your pay for the total hours worked does not fall below the minimum wage.

Employers must pay SSP but some don't offer anything else in the way of sick pay. Some offer sick pay but only after a certain length of service. My wife's employer, for example, only offers sick pay to employees who have completed 6 months with the company.

It sounds like you haven't been with this company for long. Have you checked what your contract says about sick pay?

Original poster
mzlouise · 13/07/2017 09:50

I'm required to work as and when is required to keep the department up and running. I provide out of hours/holiday/weekend support as required to achieve this. I have no direct boss telling me what to do as I am the boss of my department.

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 13/07/2017 10:05

It is fairly normal for someone in your position to be expected to work unpaid overtime.

What does your contract say about sick pay?

Original poster
mzlouise · 13/07/2017 10:06

Sorry, should add that the out of hours work is in addition to core 9 to 5 business hours that I do.

OP posts:
daisychain01 · 13/07/2017 10:20

mz didn't they confirm the basis of sick pay and overtime in your offer letter? Normally those key details are what I would look out for - so you know what you are signing up to.

Overtime in my place of work is almost always paid for staff on lower pay scales because its unfair to expect someone on say £20K to work lots of extra hours and not be remunerated.

For employees on a higher pay scale you would expect to find some statement that overtime hours worked from time to time are not paid ie it's part and parcel of doing the job.

I have no direct boss telling me what to do as I am the boss of my department surely you have a line manager who you can discuss your conditions of employment with?

Original poster
mzlouise · 13/07/2017 10:23

Yes, phrh47bridge, I expect to and have no issue with working the overtime.

OP posts:
ProfYaffle · 13/07/2017 10:28

It is fairly common, yes. Employers aren't obliged to offer sick pay over and above ssp (£89.35 per week, not payable for the first 3 days) They're supposed to pay it you and they re-claim it from the Government. If they're not paying it you can fill in a form to claim it direct though it obviously won't be a lot for one day.

Original poster
mzlouise · 13/07/2017 10:30

Hi Daisychain,

Sick pay wasn't mentioned in letter of offer or contract. Policy is in the handbook. I didn't think to ask.

Yes, I have a line manager who I will speak to it about, I just meant (in reply to a previous poster) that I'm not directed day to day what what to do and when. I have a responsibility to fulfill and I work the additional hours required to fulfill that.

I feel as I'm a middle management level I'm getting the worst of both worlds - expected to work as a senior manager but with the conditions of the 9-5 staff.

Thanks for all the messages!

OP posts:
Original poster
mzlouise · 13/07/2017 10:36

Would also add that generally I like my job, but am finding this demoralising. Guess I need to bring it up and see if there can be some compromise made.

OP posts:
flowery · 13/07/2017 11:08

I'm not a fan of cultures where senior roles get better benefits, especially things like sick pay.

But as long as the criteria for receiving enhanced sick pay are clear, it isn't 'unfair' as such unless they are breaking that rule for other people who are not entitled to it. If they are following their policies and their terms and conditions consistently, then they are doing the right thing.

insancerre · 13/07/2017 13:00

My company only pay statutory sick pay
I am salaried so don't get paid for overtime
Staff meetings are held after work and are given as TOIL, but at the company's convenience
Overtime is only paid if authorised by a manager, usually if short staffed
Staff are expected to work overtime if asked

daisychain01 · 13/07/2017 13:16

Yes I definitely would want to discuss any aspect of your work conditions if you feel unhappy and demoralised about them.

Before doing so, however, I would make sure you know what is already available to you in terms of information about your sick pay and overtime.

Unfair or not, they may wrong-foot you by saying "it's all covered in the Employee Handbook, not sure why you are surprised". You may have an uphill battle if it means changing company policy just for you.

I would be disappointed in your position that they only deign to pay a key aspect of employment benefit i.e. Sick Pay to a small minority of the workforce, the privileged few. Umm don't we all get sick, you could reasonably argue. That would be a deal breaker to me and says a lot about the mindset of your employers tbh.

Original poster
mzlouise · 13/07/2017 13:18

Just out of interest, insancerre do you get TOIL just for the staff meetings or for all overtime? Everywhere I've worked in the past informally offset any overtime with some sick pay/hospital appointments etc. So long as you weren't taking the p*ss everyone was happy.

OP posts:
ParadiseCity · 13/07/2017 14:00

I am middle management and agree it can be the worst of all worlds. I think your company is being shitty to dock you a days pay. I work unpaid OT and would be very cross to have unpaid sick days.

Wondermoomin · 13/07/2017 17:47

ProfYaffle companies cannot claim back SSP from the government any more, unfortunately. It's a cost they have to bear themselves. (Often very difficult when they also have to pay extra wages to cover the absence.)

insancerre · 13/07/2017 17:55

I don't get overtime as I am the manager of our site
I do get TOIL for meetings and I write the rota so that works for me
My team get TOIL for meetings but get paid for overtime on normal working days
I manage a nursery so it's quite important that I manage shifts as I have legal responsibilities to maintain ratios

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