can you cast your eye over this letter to HR for me?

[ELF1981]

Further to our meeting, I wish to have these issues put on record.

When I started to work in the office as a sales assistant, I feel that I did a good job, especially as there was no hand over from MsX and no official training on the quote system. I hit my target for that time and coped well with MrS departure.

Since the change in management, I feel that my working conditions have been regularly affected. My working relationship with X has not been smooth, I feel she regularly undermined me in the office, and often brought the relationship to personal issues. On several occasions X?s attitude towards me within the office has upset me, she has called me ?thick? and ?lazy?.

I feel she has regularly showed lack of support towards me and favoured other staff over me. On one occasion X made me take a holiday when I needed to meet with my insurers to resolve a claim after a break-in, yet she allowed another employee to work from home under the same circumstances, something that was not offered to me. My personal appearance has been picked on regularly by X. I feel that X has also put me under pressure to break my parental commitments, I was asked to return to the office with my daughter so X could discuss some work issues out of work hours because she would not make time within the standard hours. X has often refused to speak directly to me in the office, sending curt emails and then shouting at me if I replied via email. There have been many more incidences where X?s attitude towards me have upset me and effected my working day.

Under X?s leadership we have lost good engineers, which will affect our customer services. We have lost several service contracts recently which has a huge bearing on what I can quote on, yet the branch target remains the same. I feel as if I am being punished for being unable to quote, when the loss of service contracts have been beyond my control.

I feel as if I am being used as a scapegoat for the branch issues and X's inability to reach her targets. I have highlighted in the past several issues to X (the new computer system did not come with quick quote so I was unable to perform my job) and offered solutions which she rejected. I offered to take the laptop home to quote in an evening once my daughter was in bed, but X refused to let this happen.

I have spoken with X in the past regarding the change in my job position. When I effectively took on MrS?s job this was not explained in full, X offered me a payrise to ?reflect my target? which I understood to be the increase in target from last financial year to this. It was not explained that it was specifically for taking on a higher role within the company, had I know what was involved, I would have refused as I was happy with the position.

sounds good

Its on behalf of my dh
I'm so at the mo. He's going to look over it later but I wanted to make sure it sounded okay

Blimey, how awful. What a horrible boss.

You haven't said what you want, do you know?
Do you want a meetng? Are you invoking grievance? Do you want to move? or what?

It's good and unemotional and factual but I might break it down with some figures and maybe considering setting out something like

On x date, y happened. The result was (quantify) - I just think be more specific about the effects on the company.

I'd make the last para stronger - was it not explained in full/at all? What was put in writing? ?Also have you got a written appraisal/details to back up your first point?

I think I'd try to separate the issues a bit too into attitude/workload/role and I'd take out the scapegoat comment, don't get personal. Those are my random thoughts fwiw.

Its fine, and its good to point out how he "feels" about the situation (feelings cant be argued, as such), however, he needs to back up the feelings with facts such as "She undermined me in the office, for example, on such and such date, she called me 'lazy' in front of other members of staff, which left me feeling humiliated and undervalued"

Does that make sense?

You need to put in as many details and examples, dates times as possible, because, shoudl it go to grievance or even tribunal, it could be queried as to why certain details weren't profferred in his first complaint letter.

HTH

thanks for the comments

the basics is that he has been unhappy for a while since this person started.

today, without warning, he was dragged into the office with her and HR to be told that he could stay in his current role, face dicipline action if not meeting BRANCH targets each month (ie should be more than one staff but only him in the office at the mo) or he could go to his first role in the co at a £13k pay cut.

Good letter, you could state that it is a formal grievance (though you don't have to specify). Is your DH familiar with the companies grievance procedure? Make sure he is following it correctly.

X is bullying - possibly doesn't realise but it needs to be stopped. Make sure he has full details of all the examples given. Use the ACAS website for full details of the statutory disciplinary and grievance procedures to make sure they deal with it properly. Don't let him take any action (i.e: resign) before the process is exhausted.

I would take out the 'under x leadership we have lost..." in case there are other factors

His boss is a real piece of work.

The letter is good - agree it could be more specific. He has to fight this and I hope HR take this seriously.

the letter hasn't been handed in as yet because the hr person is on hols until mon.
though the ex manager (still at the co) found out and has promised to fight dh's corner if it goes to disciplinary. The ex manager has emailed X, HR and regional manager. X dragged DH in the office to have a go at him and trying to make out he hasn't been treated unfairly

I'm still very angry about it.

Good letter - agree with the other points about including specific examples with dates and times, and whether there were witnesses.

I believe that you do not have to specify that you are raising a grievance. The fact that you have put your issues in writing is enough, and HR are no duty bound to treat it as a grievance and investigate accordingly (that's they way we have to do things in my co.)

The meeting you mentioned today with his manager and HR is completely unethical and should also be mentioned in his letter - a grievance hearing should uphold that point on the grounds of failure to follow procedure if nothing else.

Good luck to you and your dh

'incidents' not 'incidences'.

Too many 'I feel' expressions IMO.

OK otherwise IMO.

I agree with all that's been said, definitely he needs to be as specific as he can with details of what actions X has done that made him feel bullied, such as the lazy comment.....

Is your DH in a union? He has the right to take a rep into any meeting - v v bad of them to 'spring' a meeting on him like that.

UPDATED VERSION: (can still be changed)

Further to our meeting, I wish to have these issues put on record.

When I started to work in the office as a sales assistant, I performed well, especially as there was no hand over from MsY and no official training on the quote system. I hit my target for that time and coped well with MrS departure.

Since the change in management, my working conditions have been regularly affected. My working relationship with X has not been smooth, she regularly undermined me in the office, and often brought the relationship to personal issues. On several occasions X?s attitude towards me within the office has upset me. When I attempted to discuss my problems with writing, she called me ?thick? and ?lazy? which left me feeling humiliated and undervalued. Last week she asked me to move out of the office when I was eating chips, despite the fact there were other members of staff eating chips in the office. There are many more incidents when I have been made an example out from the group.

X has regularly showed lack of support towards me and favoured other staff over me. In November X made me take a holiday when I needed to meet with my insurers to resolve a claim after a break-in, yet she allowed another employee to work from home under the same circumstances, something that was not offered to me.

My personal appearance has been picked on regularly by X. I feel that X has also put me under pressure to break my parental commitments, I was asked to return to the office with my daughter so X could discuss some work issues out of work hours because she would not make time within the standard hours.

X has often refused to speak directly to me in the office, sending curt emails and then shouting at me if I replied via email. There have been many more occasions? where X?s attitude towards me have upset me and effected my working day, however I have tried my best to put the issues behind me and get on with my work.

We have lost several service contracts recently which has a huge bearing on what I can quote on, yet the branch target remains the same. I am being punished for being unable to quote, when the loss of service contracts have been beyond my control.

I feel as if I am being used as a scapegoat for the branch issues and X's inability to reach her targets. I have highlighted in the past several issues to X (the new computer system did not come with quick quote so I was unable to perform my job) and offered solutions which she rejected. I offered to take the laptop home to quote in an evening once my daughter was in bed, but X refused to let this happen.

I highlighted to X that I had not had any sales training, I was happy that she had arranged for me to go on a course which subsequently was cancelled. Arranged meetings in Leeds to chat about their sales techniques ended up as being a waste because nobody made time to see me. All in all, Company has not helped to develop my ability to sell.

I have spoken with X in the past regarding the change in my job position. When I effectively took on MrS job this was not explained in full, X offered me a pay rise to ?reflect my target? which I understood to be the increase in target from last financial year to this. It was not explained that it was specifically for taking on a higher role within the company, had I know what was involved, I would have refused as I was happy with the position that I had held.

X?s inconsistency in management has also affected my ability to perform my job, one day she is telling me I need to go on site surveys and not quote, yet the following day she is moaning that I am not quoting. Since moving into the office to work on sales I have effectively worked two peoples jobs, there has never been anybody in sales to support me and staff that were employed did not stay long.

The solutions offered by Company with regards to my job are both leaving me in a terrible position. Should I chose to stay in the office in my current role, I will face immediate disciplinary action as it is not possible for one person to reach Location branch target based on the level of service contracts we have, regardless of how experienced they are. This will in turn affect my employment future, as I will have a disciplinary action on my records.

Should I chose to take the route of trainee engineer, I am going to be left out of pocket because of the considerable drop in pay, I will be facing a reduced family life because I cannot guarantee that I will be able to get home and see my daughter. This decision will affect my wife too as she will not be able to carry on with her studying at college as I could not guarantee to be home to pick my daughter up. I specifically took the role in the office to suit my change in circumstances in my life, and I feel that there has been no support from Company with regards to that.

I cannot understand why I would not be able to stay in the office and do the sales role of quoting and admin. Personally I feel that the solutions offered are as a direct result from X?s feelings towards me, and that in her grand plan she sees another member of staff doing this role instead of me, not based on my ability to quote (in the role I was undertaking before my ?promotion?) but based on personal matters.

I await your response

Dont't say you wish to have issues put on record that won't benefit anyone. Say you have serious concerns about the way you are treated as you are being bullied and victimised and you want the company to deal with your complaint on a formal basis in order to get a satisfactory resolution for all involved.

I would change the word moaning to critising too - "following day she is moaning that I am not quoting"

finally, with regards to the immediate disciplinary - not sure the full details but generally issues should be raised to make the person aware and solutions offered with specific targets and deadlines and explanation of the potential outcome should performance not improve. If it doesn't improve within timescales, first level warning can be given (often a verbal) with a further time line for improvements to be made and again an explanation of next stage if things still don't improve. It would then usually progress to a written, final written then dismissal (check your company disciplinary procedure as they all vary - some are shorter) or an alternative such as demotion. The company should support the person - disciplinary is about correcting a persons behaviour, not just punitive. They should only go straight in at a higher level warning for something very serious

Don't panic about a warning too much, usually on record for a year and if no further issues it just gets wiped - not the end of the world. If there is a hearing, you have a right to defend yourself against the allegations made and give details of any mitigating factors.

I've been watching this from the beginning elf1981. So how are things now? What has been happening???

hi

does the company have a documented grievance procedure? if so, you should follow it and state in the letter that you are raising a complaint under it.

Agree that an appendix setting out events by date would be helpful. Stating who witnessed events would also be helpful.

Hello!
This just popped on the active convs.

Well, DH had his last day in the office. The first letter included a third solution to which the HR guy said he'd look into. The manager in question then told my DH that she did not agree, she said he was "too stressed" and she did not think he was right for the role, despite the fact he'd done it and hit targets previously before everything in the office went arse over tit.

So dh thought he'd see how it would go, he'd been told their plan was to bring in 2 experienced sales people, which was not ideal but at least his exile out the office was based on experience. However, since then, another trainee engineer came into the office and is taking over the 1st role DH had (which was the third solution put forth). this is despite the fact that the manager had said the replacements would be "agressive proven experience sales people" - this guy had done a few weeks in the office previously, approx 50% of his jobs turned into a loss (unlike my DH who in on a 5% loss rate) but she has chosen to get him in the office instead of DH. So DH is now being forced back onto the engineers side, with a pay cut (quite drastic) and the loss of the company car.

When he found this out, went sent a 2nd letter to HR asking when they'd have a response, explaining that DH was going to go on tools as he needed a wage and this was the only option he had that the co had offered. Still no reply.

I'm FUMING. DH is mad but keeps it in, I have become a terrible ranting maniac with swear words at every sentence when it gets mentioned.

DH starts on the tools next week, he starts call a week today. I am part way through my college course and if I drop out, I owe work money which I cant afford to pay back. If I stay on the course, then whenever DH is on call when I'm at college, he'll have to drop our DD at a relatives house to be looked after until we can pick her up. She's on 16 months, so at 7 she's in bed, I dont like the idea of DH having to get her up to drop her at a relatives. This makes me very sad as when we chose to have children, one thing we said was we didnt want her being passed to pillar to post which is how a few people we know treat their kids. We chose that she'd either be with us or a childminder, with perhaps one weekend day every month or so where she has a few hours with grandparents. Now it feels like she's going to be passed around, and it makes me very angry and upset.

DH says he's working on the tools and will consider taking matters further, but that then gets very complicated and expensive.

Sorry, its a bit late so I may not be understanding it completely!

Has he been demoted as such - if so, he has to consent to this otherwise it can be classed as breach of contract and he could claim constructive dismissal.

Have they gone through a disciplinary procedure?

Have they dealt with his grievance/complaints?

Hello,

Yes, in effect he has been demoted - they gave him two options, to stay in a role and face immediate diciplinary for not meeting a sales target (despite the fact the company had lost several contacts so it was affecting who he could quote for etc, and the fact he was doing two peoples job) or to go back to the first job he was doing in the company.

If he took the dicipliniary route then he'd be out of a job within three months as it would not be possible to meet the targets due to the branch issues. So he said he'd go back to the first job (trainee engineer) because at least it meant he was getting paid. I told him he should not have agreed, but they'd given him a deadline to decide by.

No, HR have not answered his complaints, and he is due to start the new role on Monday, despite the fact he has not signed anything and is therefore still classed as office staff.

Hope this makes sense!

He has been bullied, by giving him the option of disciplinary (and likely dismissal) or accept a worse paid job they have breached his contract in my opinion. Its about the implied trust you have between employer/employee.

I would suggest he gets advice form ACAS. Keep everything documented, are there minutes from the meeting where they gave him the options for example? If not, he needs to write down everything as he remembers it asap.

Crap situation to be in but so many companies get away with this sort of appalling treatment

Oh my goodness, my Dad would have a field day with this!! He deals with this on a daily basis!

From what I can gather, he has them on a few counts:

A) Disciplinary works on a three tiered level. Firstly, if they aren't happy with DH at work, they have to give him a documented verbal warning. They have to give him 24 hours notice to give him this verbal warning and he is allowed to bring someone of his choice to the meeting with him.

If he does not comply with this meeting, then they can give him a written warning.

If he does not comply with the written warning, then they have every right to dismiss or (at their discretion, demote.)

Sounds like they are well and truly F($£Ed on all counts. He could take them to an industrial tribunal and get upwards of £5k purely because they did not cross the T's and dot the I's with their disciplinary procedure. I know because I've sat with my gob wide open whilst listening to the japers my Dad has to deal with!

Get down to Citizens advice bureau ASAP.

He IS being bullied in the workplace, so he also has another claim by way of industrial tribunal.

He can't have his contract re-negotiated without him signing anything, and if he already has a contract, they are so screwed on every level.

Get some proper advice .PLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSEE

And let us know how you go.

Good luck, sweetness.

x

Hi

Just to re-inforce the other comments. What the Company has done is in breach of your DH employment rights. Go to CAB or ACAS asap. Keep all documents, make sure he has a copy of his contract and and Co policies. There are so many breaches here I could go on forever but from what you have said these include at the most basic level a breach of contract (whether he has a written one or not) harrassment and failure to follow the statuatory Discipline and Grievance procedure.

Don't back down on this - even if they find a "reason" to dismiss him their actions to date would be likely see you win at tribunal. If it comes to it you should find an Employment Lawyer to work on a no win no fee basis.

HTH
Ruth

I know it's stressfull and very hard but, if at all possible, please dont back down. WE ARE ALL ROOTING FOR YOU & YOUR HUBBY

Thanks for the comments. We are working on this and I shall keep you all posted.

Elf xxxx

DH has been in touch with ACAS, I will let you know how it all goes, but they have said he would have good ground for a tribunal