H has been summoned to disciplinary

[IThinkIveHadEnough]

I will try to not make this long.

H has been in and out of work since the beginning of last year due to depression. He has on all of these occasions been signed off from work by his doctor. We had a bit of a ride getting him on the right antidepressant and unfortunately this one he is currently on doesn't seem to be working any more. He has attended work OH twice, both times he was managing his depression. The last time was at the end of last year and at the time he was ok when he attended. Not long after a few things happened - I was made redundant and he had a big increase of stress at work. This resulted in him being signed off work again after Christmas and he is currently still off.

He has provided sick note for the absences, though some have been late. The main problem has been him keeping in touch with work, which he hasn't really done. He knows he must do this and tries to, I have seen him try and ring work but he hasn't been able to bring himself to do it. He is the same about answering the phone and that's not just about work but pretty much anyone. He has stuck his head in the sand, he doesn't seem to be getting any better and now we are on the precipice of him getting fired (I think).

Along with the letter inviting him to a meeting there was bits of policies and also evidence from the managers point of view of what they have been doing. Now having gone through all of this with him I will say that H hasn't done what he has meant to have done. Part of him being ill is the whole being unable to communicate effectively and they do not accept texts as a way of keeping in touch, which he struggles he even do that sometimes. Similarly there have been things that management have said they would do but haven't done. That doesn't make H not doing what he's meant to any better, I'm just putting that there.

I've read through all the paper work, I have tried to take it all in, but I just don't know what we can do. He was trying to focus on getting better to go back to work and then starting looking for another job. Part of his job is a cause of his depression. I have begged and pleaded with him to get in touch with work, I know it's not his fault that he is ill. The letter has stated that he can take someone with him but he isn't part of the Union and there isn't a work colleague he feels he can take with him. How does he prepare for this? I am so stressed at the moment. He hasn't been receiving any form of sick pay for the past two months and we are severely struggling on my wage alone. I'm sorry if this is all over the place, my head is pretty much all over the place at the moment and we have not very long to get him prepared for this meeting. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Lots to think about.

Firstly, remind yourself you can't do this for him (I mean that nicely). Don't exhaust yourself trying to come up with a solution or defence he can't or won't manage.

Get him to speak to Acas on speaker phone about this generally and what his rights are. Make notes whiles they speak.

Go through the letter point by point. Address each issue and either concede or refute with evidence. This is much easier than just generally talking and will make sure the meeting only covers the issues raised - don't let your dh allow them to bring up anything else.

The focus on keeping in touch is to protect management and make them look caring , ffrom that link. See what Acas say about the requirement - is it discrimination to have it in the handbook?

Thank you. I think that is a good idea RE ACAS. From the HSE link you provided they have definitely done some of the 'don't' points and have covered some of the do points.

It's all a bit of a mess really. He has had so many different line managers since he's been there that things haven't been handled consistently, even when he's been well. He had people advising him different things about his career path and then later was told by the branch manager during an interview he seemed confused which way he wanted to go

I've been trying to get H to talk about this but he's been reluctant. You make a good point that I can't do this for him..it worries me that I can't to be honest.

Hi

I think it would be helpful to try and make the distinction between the two procedures here.

1. A capability/sickness absence process, whereby warnings/improvement notices may be given or, if no return to work is possible, termination of contract. That doesn't apply here.

1. The disciplinary process, which focuses on misconduct, not on sickness absence. This is what your DH is being taken through for failing to report and certify his absences. That being the case, he needs to attend the meeting (preferably proving copies of his sick notes - he may be able to get further copies from his GP). He needs to explain why he hasn't adhered to his employers policy and give reassurances that it won't happen again if he wants to keep his job. If he hasn't certified his absences then he will be AWOL which are potentially grounds to dismiss on the grounds of gross misconduct.

Regardless of his depression, he needs to maintain contact with his employer. It only takes a few minutes each week and you should make sure he stays on top of it.

Also, he doesn't have the right to a lawyer present (unless he is a doctor or teacher etc and facing being deprived of their whole career by being struck off). He could ask for an adjustment to their policy though to allow you to attend (although legally they don't have to allow that).

I think you may need to be realistic here. Does he believe tha

Sorry stupid phone. Does he believe that he will be able to do this job in the future. If he is unable to contact work, hand in sick notes etc, is it realistic that he will manage the day to say stresses of a job. Is he getting treatment that is helping. I echo the poster who said you can't do all this for him. You need to look after yourself as well.

Thank you.

Yes that is about the gist of it. I understand that it's more his behaviour than anything else. The problem with the ringing in has been that he has physically been unable to do it in the sense of he will have his phone in front of him with the number up but it's pressing the button to make the call. He will physically shake sometimes and has even been sick on occasion. The doctor has explained that this is the anxiety part of his illness. He wants to do it and knows he has to do it but he just can't. It's really hard to explain exactly what happens to him. He will then get worked up and his body just kind of shuts down. The doctor said that this is the depression part of his illness, as well as the other symptoms he has. This weekend has been horrible since he got the letter. He has been worked up, snappy, slept in the day and broken down into tears. He doesn't know what to do with himself. None of what he has or hasn't done has been ideal and he knows that. I have had to sit with him before until he was able to ring but I've not been able to sit there every day with him and do it. On some occasions there has been no answer and he's lost his nerve to ring again or he's rung in on one day and explained he has been low and is arranging to see his doctor but they've required him to ring every day until they receive the sick note and this is what he struggles with.

He has said he will ask a colleague who used to work at his branch if she would mind attending. She is still employed by the group and used to be a trade union rep, just in a different branch now. They got on quite well before she moved and he would be ok with her sitting in.

He is getting treatment and we thought we'd found the antidepressant that worked but it doesn't seem to be working any more. The doctor has upped his medication and can up it once more but then he has said that if that fails H may be a psychiatrist involved in his care as we have tried many different antidepressants and nothing is really really helping.

I managed to have a chat with him this evening and he feels like his head is just all over the place. He said if it was a chat about going back on a planned phased return to work he may be alright with working towards and through that. The fact it is a disciplinary has put a lot more pressure on and he doesn't know if he would be ready to go back just yet if they allowed him to keep his job and said that he had to go back right away.

He would like to try and push the meeting back a few days to see if his colleague can/will attend the meeting with him and to prepare himself a bit more. How long is a reasonable amount of time? Can they just say no he has to attend on Friday?

I'm so sorry you are going through all this . Depression and anxiety are awful. I've been there , I know.

Would there be any chance of redundancy / early retirement ? You are both steeped in the mess of what to do , meetings , sick notes , phoning in , not phoning in etc . Would all this worry go away if your husband didn't go back to work? It may be difficult financially but health-wise it might be a massive relief .

It doesn't sound as if a phased return is going to work. Realistically if he can't pick up the phone , with the best will in the world, he isn't going to be in a place to work for them again. How long did his attempts to return last?

From what you are saying there have been some gaps between his certificates and a failure to communicate. He needs to admit this but could he ask oh if they would be able to say anything in mitigation. The likelihood of him going back seems small. If he lost the job presumably he could claim ESA.

I agree with liz from what you have described he doesn't sound capable of being in work and may be better negotiating early retirement or redundancy. I teach in a school so union heavy but you have to stick to the rules over notes and phased return is not designed to drag on..... he just doesn't sound well enough.

He needs to focus on getting well and then work..the two Don't sound compatible at the moment.

Sympathies, it sounds awful. Just wanted to add quickly that although you don't have a right to be there, you can still ask perhaps on the basis that as it's about his mental health it's a sensitive issue that he doesn't want to discuss with work colleagues. My brother had a similar hearing about a year in to sickness and I was able to go with him.

He should be covered by the Equality Act, so there will be risks in dismissing him, so bearing in mind what you've said about how ill he is you could try and focus on getting a settlement and a reference through a compromise agreement, it avoids them a load of legal hassle. I might ask for 3-6 months pay but it's worth getting proper advice on this.

I don't know about the legalities/intricacies if employment law except that he can be let go for not being up to the job due to his health. I was in this position and left before it reached that point. He would be entitled to esa, Dla and depending on your income other benefits too. I realise for lots I people it can seem like failure/not providing for your family but he can no more help this than if it were a physical illness. He doesn't seem up to working especially in a customer facing role. From a health perspective he'd be better off quitting and getting his health on track properly. Plus no disrespect to you or him but it's not really fair on the employer either if he's unreliable both for work and letting them know what's happening. Unfair on all of you mental ill health is horribly unjust.

Thank you all of you for your replies. I'm at work so can't fully respond (just on a quick break!) but I promise to fully later.

He has been in touch with the person chairing to ask for a few more days to prepare (which is a massive thing). He was told that it would likely be a no but they would check with HR. He's still waiting to hear from this.

Something I just quickly wanted to check is whether he is actually in a position with this being a disciplinary, for possible gross misconduct for not keeping in touch, to actually negotiate redundancy pay?

No he can't negotiate redundancy pay. the job is not redundant. But he would get notice pay? But if he is off sick during the notice period just whatever he gets normally whilst of sick. If they pay him in lieu of notice that may be advantageous. But I don't think he is in much of a negotiating position.

Technically they can just dismiss him. The risk to them is that because he's covered under the Equality Act if they haven't got their process quite right then he could take them to tribunal. It depends how risk averse they are. They might consider the pay off worth it to have the matter finished. He would need to sign a compromise agreement that contained the settlement amount and various other terms and conditions and they will have to pay for a solicitor to advise him on this. I'm not a legal expert though so talk to ACAS / a Law Centre / solicitor.

Sorry I totally didn't mean redundancy pay, I meant to type compromise agreement but was rushing and not thinking straight.

So today H has called the person holding the disciplinary. He asked for a couple of days extra and he was told that HR usually say no as they only give a week from the date the letter would have been received but he would check and get back to H. This was at 11.45 and he's not called back. I messaged H and asked him to try and call the person back after it had been over two hours but the person did not answer. So we are none the wiser if he has that extension or not. H has spent the rest of the day stressing and worrying whilst waiting but also called ACAS and following on from that (on the advice of ACAS) the equality and advisory support service.

H said that the ACAS lady wasn't very helpful and gave him the number of equality and advisory support. The man he spoke to there was really helpful. He directed H to some templates and talked through everything with him. He said he didn't think they would be able to sack him on the spot and if that was their intention they would make him aware of this on Friday but not sack him then. He said that from what H has described it doesn't sound like his work have done everything they could have done to make reasonable adjustments. He was of the opinion that knowing that H struggled with the ringing in aspect that there should have been something which may have allowed H to text in, as this is generally what he used to do in the beginning but he was told that he had to ring and had that constant pressure there to ring. The adviser said there were a few other things that they could have done too. So now it's a case of going through all of the paperwork again that they sent and making additional calls to ACAS off the back of the calls today.

I've asked H what he wants from Friday and he isn't sure. Health wise if he could negotiate something with them then that may be better but I don't know what his thinking is yet. His other attempts to return have generally lasted a good few months, it's just been that something which has been quite big has happened and knocked him off again. We both appreciate that this hasn't been particularly fair on work also.

I'm hoping that tomorrow they will let him know what's going on with the meeting and have told him to ring early in the morning if he can, as he doesn't want to ask the colleague about attending unless he can give her firm details when asking. I'm really proud of him for making all of the phone calls today, I know it's not been easy for him and I can only hope he can do the same tomorrow.

You should be really proud of him that must have been so hard for him! Glad he got hold of someone helpful. Sounds now like they're trying to manage him out (eg initially accepting texts then insisting on calls which they knew he had trouble with). That I would imagine leaves them wide open to a tribunal. My thinking (and as I've said I'm no expert), is that even if you both don't think you'd go ahead with a tribunal it probably wouldn't hurt to mention the possibility, if true you could even mention that you've been advised this is a possible route for you to go down.

Just wondering how your DH got one today and if he's managed to reschedule.

Please please go through the accusations in the letter with your dh and make comments on them.

Going in prepared and sticking to the allegations rather than letting them bring in loads of fluff and banboozling him etc will probably be a surprise to them. This is so stressful and lots of people I think react rather than are proactive.

Suggest to your husband that they aren't just allowed to use the meeting to tell him how crap he is - he should start by asking that the minutes record that he has a disability, that his firm knew this and as such the Equality Act applies where relevant. I don't mean as a threat at all, but things like reasonable adjustments are relevant then AND now.

Sorry to hear about all this - it must be very stressful for you both.

Realistically, he does not sound fit for work even with a phased return. If he has not followed the company procedures then they can dismiss, if they can prove gross misconduct then they can dismiss without notice (although I also think this is unlikely to happen on the day). Obviously if he's got anything to refute their evidence then make sure he can get that across at the hearing. As for a compromise agreement - I'm not entirely sure the company will go for that as I can't see the benefit for them (unless they have really messed up somewhere along the line!).

The sick notes since February - what has happened to them? Have you/can you get copies?

Hi sorry I've not checked back in, things have been manic. Thank you for your posts

They managed to rearrange the meeting to tomorrow morning. They were meant to send him a letter to confirm this but we haven't received one as yet. The lady he asked to attend with him said she would see what her rota was like but she's not got back to him so he's assuming it is a no. I asked him to drop her a message just to check she can't but he doesn't want to bother her. I don't think he is ready for tomorrow and I feel a bit helpless really. He's already starting to panic.

The acusation in the letter is basically that despite knowing the sickness and absence procedure of keeping in regular contact with his manager and providing valid medical certificates H has failed to do this, which has led to unauthorised absence from work which results in gross misconduct. As I have said earlier in the thread he has, for the most part, been unable to ring in due to his illness and has text in. He has been told this is not good enough. I've dropped the sick notes off on his behalf whenever I have been able to, which has sometimes resulted in me being interrogated about how he is including personal questions on how he is with our children etc. Some sick notes have been late in, which have not helped. We're assuming that they're classing him as AWOL due to the lack of contact rather than the sick notes, as these have all been provided to his work. We don't have any copies of these which may be an oversight on our part.

H is unsure what to bring up tomorrow. He has been told (Equality Support people) that it doesn't sound like they have made the appropriate/enough allowances for his illness ie texting in which he could have done. H is unhappy about the way some things have been handled eg his illness consistently being described as stress after being diagnosed with depression, the lack of support from OH after the first appointment, who referred it back to the branch as a management issue and that HR have failed to send an SSP1 form even after being asked to resend it, which is delaying his current claim for ESA. These are just a few of the things, he has never been dealt with consistently due to a high turnover of line managers, who all gave conflicting advice and I think he feels that even if he were to get through tomorrow that his position is now untenable if he attempted to return to work.

I've tried to advise him best I can and told him to stick to the accusation in the letter but he is also wanting to raise the above points. Should he do this or leave it until another time? I've helped him make a few notes but he seems to be floundering a bit and I don't know how to help

I would - I meant to stick to the accusations made by them - he could do notes on the allegations and then refer to the overall lack of support with regards to his disability? Along the lines of he feels the inconsistency and lack of reasonable adjustments have not supported his return?

Has he text in every time? (I think your last message suggests he has, but you also say that he could have text in, so I'm just checking.) did he text in plenty of time? Were they always aware whether he was in or not, either by phone or text?

And did his work know that he was struggling to phone? If he's got any evidence of asking to text instead or this being declined, he should take that. I think if he has been texting and they knew he needed to text because he was struggling to call, they arguable have failed to make adjustments. That only really stands if there have been no periods of him contacting them late/not at all though, if there have, you'd use a different tact.

Hope it went ok for him today.

Been thinking of you, hope it went OK

Thanks for your posts, I appreciate everyone's thoughts and advice - you've all been great.

Just to answer no he didn't text in every time. What happened was he'd text in and then get a text back saying you really need to ring in. Or they'd ring him and he wouldn't answer. Or they'd just completely ignore his texts. He'd told them he struggled with ringing but the put a lot of pressure on him to constantly ring up, which wasn't possible for him sometimes.

H thought it went ok. They kept him waiting when he arrived and he had to wait downstairs in view of his colleagues, some who haven't seen him since February, and it made him feel very uncomfortable. He wanted to leave at one point but then he got taken upstairs. He forgot to mentioned the disability thing to be recorded in the minutes but I think this was because his nerves were shot by the time he got in there and sat down. He said the guy who interviewed him and will be making the decision seems alright, but he didn't think he understood what it is like for H at all. H did mention he felt he had a disability and that the appropriate work adjustments had not been made for him to make contact to account for his illness. The guy said that they had thousands of employees and weren't able to tailor things to each individual. He then went on to ask why I hadn't done this, hadn't done that etc etc if H couldn't do it himself, putting onus on me. H said that I had done everything I could but at the end of the day it was his responsibility. The guy kept on about me and H said well what if I was single and he replied 'well we're tailoring it to your situation', which completely contradicted what he said earlier.

H laid out his reasons and tried to put his arguments across. He said the guy was saying stuff like 'even a simple phone call' to which H said exactly. For someone like the guy it was an easy every day task but for H with his illness it was incredibly difficult. The guy mentioned about wishing H was part of a union and then the options for H would be set out for him before the meeting. He said that if H would have resigned that they would have most likely given him a good reference but if they fired him this would be on his record for any new jobs. He went through what would happen and outlined outcomes. Apparently we will hear via writing in 7 days, but considering it's taken them 3 weeks to send out an SSP1 with the wrong date on plus H only receiving the confirmation letter today about the rearrangement of the disciplinary I won't hold my breath.

I think the guy will move to dismiss, just going off what H said about what was being said etc, but he doesn't appear to really get the whole disability thing in terms of mental health. H can appeal, which he will do if it comes to that, but I don't know what comeback we really have here. I've told H to read through the notes and make sure that everything is there once he receives them. Any other advice of words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.