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Original poster

Does an employer have to give notice when changing terms of contract? Re Holiday entitlement

30 replies

Kbear · 26/01/2015 11:40

Our employer thinks he can change whatever he wants, at will. A colleague has told him he has to consult with staff before changes. He disagrees.

It's regarding holiday entitlement. The calculations are correct (we are all part time) we think... but some members of staff feel notice should have been given notice of changes in the light of the fact that one person's holiday entitlement has been reduced by 5 days per year.

We are a small company. Less than 30 employees.

Advice appreciated.

OP posts:
flowery · 26/01/2015 12:53

Why are people's holiday entitlements being reduced so drastically? 5 days reduction for a part timer is huge, are they definitely still getting the minimum 5.6 weeks?

To change terms and conditions an employer must seek consent, consult properly and only force a change with good business reasons for doing so.

Original poster
Kbear · 26/01/2015 19:22

We all had generous holiday entitlements - full timers get 30 days plus 8 bank holidays. There are four secretaries who are part time (I started another thread about all that last week and conclusion was the calculations were correct).

Basically, someone is very cross they were not told of the changes but found out when looking at the online holiday entitlement board (she is part time). I was told when she was off, then the boss was off then she had a days hol so he alleges he didn't get a chance to tell her. So I had to tell her - I'm not her supervisor, just long standing colleague, as she was asking me why she was getting such a reduced holiday entitlement this year - put me in a very awkward position (and I have told the boss I am not happy about that, it's not my place to tell her things like that, he's the boss).

She has taken advice from a HR manager friend who knows about these things and believe she should have been consulted and given notice of the changes. Courtesy would dictate that yes, telling someone at the end of January that their holiday entitlement is reduced the same year is a bit off BUT is it against employment law? Is it a change to our terms of contract? Are we entitled to notice/consultation?

OP posts:
flowery · 26/01/2015 21:26

Holiday entitlement is part of terms and conditions, yes, so consultation is required. I'm confused though, is he only reducing holiday for part timers but full timers keep the generous 38 day entitlement?

Original poster
Kbear · 26/01/2015 21:42

The part timers are pro rata with holiday and bank hols are pro rata depending how many days you work. I work four so get four fifths.

so I get 25 days altogether.

OP posts:
flowery · 26/01/2015 22:23

Why the reduction though? 5 days is a huge reduction. Did that person have way too much holiday before or something? Is this all putting right an earlier error?

Original poster
Kbear · 27/01/2015 08:03

Yes, her entitlement was wrong. The other boss set it up but failed to calculate the fact she worked Monday and Fridays so got the bank holidays on top.

but finding out at end of Jan that you're getting a lot less Hol is a bit crap. hence her insisting she should have had notice.

OP posts:
ginmakesitallok · 27/01/2015 08:06

So the terms and conditions haven't actually changed, people are now getting their correct entitlement? He doesn't need to give notice in that case.

flowery · 27/01/2015 08:36

Did her contract say the original far-too-much amount, the correct amount or something else. The fact that it's correcting an error is pertinent to the OP. You don't say how many days she works, but if she had previously been given 5 days too much holiday that's a huge amount for a part timer, a clear error. How many years had she had the incorrect amount?

flowery · 27/01/2015 08:52

Oh, and you should get 30.5 or 31 days altogether, not 25, so if your boss is saying yours is 25 that's not correct.

Original poster
Kbear · 27/01/2015 09:03

Thanks for your comments - really helpful. My brain keeps exploding when I try to figure all this out.

To answer the questions:

It's correcting a previously wrong holiday entitlement.

She has been here 3.5 years and was awarded this amount when she started as were we all.

I get 25 bookable days plus 4/5ths of the bank holidays minus any which fall on my work days. I think that is correct. I work four days.

She gets 12 bookable days plus 3/5ths of the bank holidays minus any which fall on her work days. She works 3 days. Mon, Thur, Fri.

The other three day week girl gets the same but works Tue, Wed, Fri so gets 18 days bookable to make up for the bank holidays she doesn't work...

AAAAAAAAAAAAGH

OP posts:
Original poster
Kbear · 27/01/2015 09:04

Full timers get 25 days plus 8 bank holidays. After five years you get 30 days plus 8 bank holidays.

I have been here 6 years. The other girls only three and two respectively.

Confused? yep me too

OP posts:
tribpot · 27/01/2015 09:08

She has been here 3.5 years and was awarded this amount when she started

So her contract stated what, 12 days? Or 17?

OllyBJolly · 27/01/2015 09:13

So this is correcting a miscalculation? Part time workers have been getting more than their allowance in recent years?

If that's the case there doesn't have to be a consultation because it's not a contractual change.

titchy · 27/01/2015 09:24

I assume her contract just says 'pro rata 25 days and 8 BH'. I also assume you meant to say her book able holiday was 18 days not 12?
If you calculate it correctly the pro rata BH entitlement will change each year depending on what days Xmas and NY fall on, so these shouldn't be fixed in a contract anyway.

titchy · 27/01/2015 09:26

Actually if she works 3 days a week she should have 15 days plus 3/5 BH days, so about 5 BH days, which would be 4 Monday's and one other assuming Cmas and Ny don't fall on her working days.

Original poster
Kbear · 27/01/2015 09:31

Titchy - thanks

Her letter says she gets 12 days holiday. This is the actual text...

"Employed under 5 years

Working 3 day week Mon, Thur, Fri

Public holidays that fall on day of work = 8

15 days holiday + 5 (rolled up from 4.8) public holidays minus 8 public holidays that fall on a day you work = 12 days holiday."

OP posts:
Ememem84 · 27/01/2015 09:32

I would have thought that this is the sort of thing that should be mentioned at the end of the holiday year - not once it has started?

I understand that they want to correct past mistakes, and if it forms part of T&C I think they can just change these things, but have to make staff aware. My employer has changed things previously and has sent letters out to all staff (via email and post) to ensure we were all informed and to give us an opportunity to query.

Original poster
Kbear · 27/01/2015 09:36

Yes, employer malfunction here - not finding out about the changes until end of Jan is bad, but that's how it is here. A one man band pretty much, and he doesn't really know about employment law etc... we are all from a big firm previously with thousands of staff and a competent HR dept... so we are struggling with things....

It's ok if it works in your favour lol

OP posts:
ssd · 27/01/2015 09:44

flowery, surely if the employee was used to getting a certain amount of holidays over the years and her employer suddenly want to change it she is protected under the banner of custom and practise?

I'm in a similar position in my work, a new boss came in last year and decided I had had too many holidays the previous years, although I only took what I was told to take....now he says I owe back days from the previous years allowance, acas told me this is wrong as under custom and practise I should still what what I've had for 6 years..but I have no contract and have been there 7 years now...

flowery · 27/01/2015 09:57

OP what does her contract say?

Original poster
Kbear · 27/01/2015 10:03

She's not here today but I've sent her a link to this thread to her email at home so she might join us!

OP posts:
titchy · 27/01/2015 10:35

Well the calculation is correct IF Xmas and New year fall on her working days, which they do in 2015, but 2016 one of the Xmas BHs isn't one of her working days, so her holiday entitlement for that year would be 13 days.

So it shouldn't be fixed in a letter like that!

flowery · 27/01/2015 12:00

Yes, the fact that bank holidays are not all static is precisely one of the reasons why holiday (for part timers at least) should be expressed as a total. OP your friend is entitled to 20 days paid leave a year, of which a varying number year-to-year will need to be used to take bank holidays off in the event they fall on her normal working days.

Custom and practice can be relevant. In your case ssd with no contract at all to rely on and 6 continuous years of a certain entitlement, I'd say that absolutely is contractual.

Depending on what the OP's contract says, it may be that her contract doesn't actually clearly say she is entitled to 25 paid days off (assuming the 3-day-weeker is the one the OP says is having her entitlement reduced by 5 days). If her contract is correct, however, and she has been receiving extra holiday in error, and contrary to the terms of her contract for a number of years (which she could be expected to have noticed), custom and practice wouldn't be so clearly relevant at all.

flowery · 27/01/2015 12:10

Sorry OP's colleague's contract not the OPs contract.

Original poster
Kbear · 27/01/2015 12:33

She can't find her contract at the moment but we were all given letters two years ago setting out our holiday entitlement. So she was told what her entitlement was.

She started on two days and now works three so her contract will state holiday based on two days probably.

Thanks all so much for your advice - we are lost here without a HR person!

OP posts: