any help please?

[whentheshithitsthefan]

my husband was dismissed from work today. he will be appealing the decision, but as we have never done this before we dont know where to start, can anyone offer some advice?

OK so you would be appealing against the decision rather than the process.

I think as Flowery says he would be best to apologise, explain that any contact he may have made was not intended that way, previously unblemished record etc, no other concerns, no other complaints...

It certainly seems odd that they have taken he says/she says to be "reasonable belief" with absoultely nothing to corroborate it. No wonder you are angry!

This is why blurred lines in work relationships are such a bad thing.

Nobody should be casually putting their arms around a colleagueand it shouldn't take CCTV footage to work out if someone was inappropriate. It's work, not a social club.

OP try not to stress about this too much. So sorry you are going through this.

You need to obtain legal advice from an employment solicitor with regards to your next steps. Your husband needs to write a letter appealing their decision and why and advise his employer he will be seeking legal advice.

I am sorry to ask - do you think your husband is not telling you the whole truth. Has he seen the CCTV?

He has seen it, so has his witness. Both of them say the exact same thing with regards to what it shows. I totally believe him.

Who is the witness though? Obviously not specifically, but is it someone who is completely unbiased, or is it a friend or colleague?

If the person was comfortable enough around your husband to come and put her arms round him, then it stands to reason that she must have thought that he touched her inappropriately (and deliberately) to then report him. Does your husband have any idea why she'd have reacted as she has?

Your issue is that if your husband denies inappropriately touching her, and the company believe that the CCTV shows that he does (they don't need to prove it, just reasonably believe it), his appeal is likely to fail.

Apologising and claiming that it was accidental isn't possible, either, if he's been actively protesting that he didn't do it.

Was the witness someone with enough training/legal knowledge to guide you?

Husband has no idea why she has reacted this way. Obviously he has had no contact with her since the incident. She may totally believe something, it doesn't make it true.
The witness is someone who knows the company's policys and procedures well and is more than comfortable to voice their opinion if they did believe he had acted inappropriately. Our home insurance has legal cover and we spoke to acas and cab. All said you have to see the company's process through before you can get more advice from outside.

As anything like this - and by this I mean contact - any kind of physical contact. If so, why has it bothered her now? What's her problem now - she initiated the contact in the first place.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused by that message TINY. What do you mean?

It's really difficult because if he had inappropriately touched her on, say, the breast, even just by brushing it with his hand by accident, he would have registered it. There is no way that a man can touch a woman's breast without realising. That isn't to say that it can't be accidental or that it can't be non-sexual. But your DH says it didn't happen.

If CCTV shows that something happened then it makes the denial sound suspicious.

How awful. Get as much help as you can, from Acas, the Union if he's in one, or an employment lawyer.

I find it difficult to believe that an employee can be instantly dismissed on the grounds of an allegation, no matter how serious. Check the policy: even if sexual harassment is a dismissable offence, there needs to be proof. Not just allegation and some grainy cctv.

Good luck:

There doesn't need to be "proof" to dismiss someone - a reasonable belief that the offence was committed by the person is sufficient, plus dismissal needing to be a reasonable proportionate response to that offence in that context.

It can even be perfectly lawful to dismiss more than one person for (for example) theft, where it is clear that it was one of them but no way of "proving" which one it was. That's fairly extreme, but does happen.

It doesn't sound on the face of it as though dismissal was perhaps a reasonable response based on what the OP says though, so I would definitely encourage an appeal.

There is no way that a man can touch a woman's breast without realising. That isn't to say that it can't be accidental or that it can't be non-sexual. But your DH says it didn't happen.

husband was wearing gloves, lady was wearing a coat.

i think i have the issue that i cant see how ONE incident that they said MAY have happend either intentionally or UNINTENTIONALLY which they cant show happened with any sexual intent, can mean my husband looses his job.

and i know im biased. i just feel like, if a woman had accidently possibly touched this lady it would have been put down as nothing.

Right, I see. It sounds very tricky. First Steps first.

Is physical contact allowed/expected in their line of duty?

In an office, for example, it would appear to be an odd situation. She came over and put her arms around him, and then seemingly felt that he had groped her, and was upset enough to report it rather than calling him out or just withdrawing from him.

In a more physical job, though, it would be more normal for them to be hugging/having physical contact in the first place.

Has your husband responded at all since seeing the CCTV? If not, then you have to choose which line of appeal he goes for - maintaining that he did not touch her, or apologising and saying it was unintentional. If he has already spoken since seeing it, he'll need to go with whatever he's already said.

One would hope that your home insurance would help you draft the letter, but it appears that they are going to be very unhelpful.

So lady was wearing a coat; hubby was wearing gloves. I'm struggling to believe how any physical contact could be construed as deliberately sexual, and ended up with an employee losing his job without further investigation. A suspension pending investigation would have been more appropriate, and in proportion to the seriousness of the alleged offence.

Have you taken advice yet, OP?

there was a suspension notso, 3 weeks worth.
but other than speaking to the lady once, and husband once, they have viewed the cctv and that is all.
there is no other investigation.
their notes all use very umberella terms, may, might, could, possibly.
there is nothing at all to show that it was sexual, if there was any contact at all. even if they completlty believe he did touch her, there is nothing to say it was sexual. no previous issues between the 2, nothing he has ever said or done that could point to him being inappropriate.

cab, and acas have both said theres nothing he can do until he has appealed.

Sorry thought he was dismissed without suspension. So, 3 weeks of suspension resulting in very little in the way of a case against him?

There was absolutely nothing new shown to him from the 3 weeks suspension.
The investigation is, his interview. Her statement. Cctv. And they admitted that he did not do what she accused him of in her statement.

An employer only has to show it has reasonable belief that he touched her inappropriately. It is not a very high burden of proof. One person's word against another can be sufficient to demonstrate that belief. The employer does not need to prove he did touch her or intended to touch her.

Your husband should make an appointment with a solicitor or citizens advice bureau for advice on the prospects of a tribunal claim.

The employer does not need to prove he did touch her or intended to touch her.

what? really? how can that be? a persons whole career can be totally destroyed based on absolutely nothing?

they have specifically said, sexual. but there is nothing at all to suggest if anything possible happened that there was any sexual element.

i have spoken to the legal cover thing on the home insurance, they have said to lodge the appeal, then you have to do a conciliation thing via acas, then you can go to appeal. which is covered with my home insurance. so i think we just have to take it one step at a time. we still haven't received the dismissal letter from his employer yet, so we cant even raise an appeal yet.

Well this sounds political. An inadvertent touch when she put her arms around him. . In itself sexual harassment. I have been in a workplace where a political player asked a director to dance then filed for sexual harrassment. In her case she gave the game away by trying to use it to lever a promotion in a direct 'I will drop if.. 'way. . which ended her place in the firm.. but she had used it in whispering campaigns at least twice before. She initiated the contract which suggests premeditation. Are they in a rival role or is there an advantage for her? if there is something obvious eg esp previous friction they are duty bound to investigate this or they are being 'unreasonable' esp if he mentions it as a concern. Does he have emails showing tension? Could he state he was made to feel very uncomfortable by the physical contact and this dramatically affected his reaction?

Husband Had his appeal meeting over 3 weeks ago and has heard nothing. He has tried to get into contact with the appeal manager but hasn't been successful. How long should he give them before taking it further ?

Do it immediately.

the issue we have is that on the acas website it says that if you go to early conciliation to early it can look bad if you go to tribunal, like you haven't given the company enough time to do their bit. but what counts as enough time?

well husbands ex company have still made no contact with us, husband has tried to get the appeal manager by telephone on numberous occasions, and he is always busy, on leave and currently on holiday. so husband started acas early concilliation last friday, and they have basically said there is nothing that they can do until the company reply to the appeal and that they cant force or rush the issue. his comany dismissed hjim over 6 weeks ago, and if the appeal is uncusesful you only have 12 weeks from dismissal to go to tribrunal. seems like they are just using delaying tatics and we cant actually move anything forward...any ideas what our next move should be?
thanks.