Advice needed with regard to disciplinary over levels of absence

[mummyscaryhouseonthehill]

I had a meeting on Wednesday night with two managers at work with regard to me absence levels.

I have had a migraine in April, Tummy bug in June and a second migraine in September. Also 1 period of dependants leave which entailed missing 1 shift from work.

They hay have decided that because I have 3 absences in a 26 week period with an absence percentage of 5.7 which is above the 3% it says you are permitted in the handbook. I need to attend a disciplinary hearing on the 13th of this month.

I have been told I am entitled to representation but am not sure what this is or involves.

I am also wondering if it is normal for the manager who took notes in the investigation meeting to be running the disciplinary session with the personnel manager?

Any advice would be welcomed.

I think representation means you can take a colleague or union rep with you

Sounds normal to me for the manager who took notes to be in the disciplinary session

What else does your handbook say?

TheBlonde is right re representation. The manager being in is fairly normal, depends on the size of the company. If possible the people hearing the disciplinary should be different from those who conducted the investigation.

I assume from what you've said the dependent leave isn't included in the overall absence level? Do you have access to a Union?

Not sure I am just putting down what was in the letter.

My handbook has been filled somewhere so safe I can't find it. I shall have to see if I can get a copy of it from personnel this evening when I am in.

The dependants leave is not been counted no.

I work for a larger supermarket chain and ther are more than enough managers for there to be a different manager to run the session other than the one who took the notes in the previouse meeting especially as she is not one of my managers. iyswim.

Sorry pressed post to soon.

I am not in the union but apparently we have colleagues who have been trained to act as representatives, I just need to find out who they are.

Hmmm, the manager issue won't automatically make the process unfair but having an independent manager review the findings at a Disciplinary would be seen as best practice. Try speaking to personnel about it or your Union if you have one.

You can always ring ACAS for detailed advice. Getting a copy of your handbook is a good idea as well, familiarise yourself with what it says about sickness absence as well as disciplinary procedure.

Definitely take a trusted colleague or a union rep in with you - they can be a great support. I would imagine the meeting will involving asking you about any underlying health issues and a way forward ie if you get migranes regularly have you been to see a doctor, what would they recommend (dietry advice etc). My advice would be to remain calm and remain open to reasonable suggestions. If you haven't been to see a doctor you could perheps agree to see one and ask for advice - this way you are seen as doing something positive. With regards for time off for dependants they will probably be exploring if anyone else could help out when your child is ill - again, be open to suggestions but be realistic if there is no-one else say so and remember you are entitled to reasonable time off by law to care for dependants (althogh not paid). To be honest I don't think your sickness record is bad but a lot of firms now like to be seen to be doing something about sickness quite early on - they should be supportive and as long as you are seen as co-operative and willing to take advice there should not be a problem. They will probably set a review date (eg 3 months) where your sickness will be looked at to see if improved. Don't worry HR should be conducting this exercise to try and help you - not to tell you off.

I have been involved in this from the other end.

Don't worry as incy says a first meeting would be very much about why you had the absences, are there any factors impacting on absence and your general health & happiness at work.

They may set you a goal for absence levels, but this needs to be a reasonable one.

Most managers can tell the difference between genuine sickness & someone who is putting it on, so it shouldn't be anything to worry about.

Work in HR for large supermarket!! We have a policy that it must be a different manager who conducts the disciplinary hearing to the one that carried out the investigation. This ensures an objective decision to be made in the disciplinary.

A bit of other advice..did you get copies of the notes from the investigation? Make sure you always read them at the end before you sign them. Take a rep in with you for moral support - your company should have trained reps (ask HR) or you are entitled to a colleague of your choice.

The disciplining manager will look at each of your absences in turn and want to discuss them, the reasons for them, and whether there is a pattern (i.e. - are they always on the same day etc etc) The purpose is to help you improve your attendance, so they should be discussing about how they can help too. For example, if 2 of the occasions are due to migraine, are they brought on by anything at work (computer screens, stress?) or are there problems outside of work that are affecting your attendance? Be open and honest with them, ask for help if you need it, and remember you have the right to adjourn at any point in the meeting if you want a break, or just need to discuss anything with your rep.

Good Luck.

Thanks everyone.

I now have a copy of the NEW staff/colleague handbook. Which I have sat here and read after finishing work. Only to find that the grievance and disciplinary procedure has a handbook of its own which suprise suprise I do not have a copy of.

So when I go back in at 13:15 I shall be asking for a copy of the other handbook and a list of trained colleagues to see if there is anyone on there I know. Other wise can I take any colleague in with me?

I do not have a copy of the notes from the investigation, should I of asked for one? If so do you think personel would run a copy off for me?

So confused by all this. I have never had to deal with anything like this befor.

Yes, you can take in any other colleague of your choice if there are no reps, or if you do not want one of the trained ones. You should have been given a copy of the notes already, so you are well within your rights to ask for them.

To be honest, it is pretty poor that you have been investigated and invited for a disciplinary without being informed of all of this. In my company, this would consitute a complete failure on the part of the manager to follow the correct procedure, and you would have grounds for appeal after the disciplinary if you are issued with a warning.

My advice would be to speak to your HR manager and raise all these issues, and definately make sure you get a copy of the disciplinary and grievance handbook. Good Luck!

Is it Tesco by any chance? I used to work there and it was so easy to go over the 3% especially if you are prone to things like migraines - I know it's to stop people throwing 'sickies' but it puts a lot of stress on you if you are genuinely ill.

Hi bublerock no not Tesco's but one of their competitors think sharon osbornne and you have the right chain.

I really don't think this is being very well handled by your employer - I don't like this use of 'discipline' over sickness - it should be sickness counselling where they are trying to work with you and help you lower your sickness levels. As Poppiesmum has said if there is something contributing to your illness from work (eg workload/stress) then you should ask them to help you with this. They really need to be seen to be helping you get better and not frightening you like this. As I've already said, agree to any reasonable suggestions such as going to see a GP for advice and I really can't see what else you are expected to do. Please don't be worried - they are supposed to be supporting and helping you - an enployment tribunal would not look kindly on an employer who is not seen as doing so. This sort of heavy handed behavior from employers makes me so angry ! Big hug.

Hi mummyscaryhouseonthehill - have first had experience of your employer and it is being handled in absolutely the wrong way, and goes against every policy and procedure for managing absence.

How did you get on at the weekend with your requests for the notes and reps?

They are making a copy of the notes for me to collect tonight. Not sure if I want one of their reps may ask a colleague who knows about the crap time I have had this year to go in with me as they me able to advise on what to disclose and what to keep to myself iyswim. Have had a really rubbish year so far and this is just the icing on the cake. Am seriousley considering asking the gp for ad's again as I am struggling to keep it all together and I could of been signed off at any point in the last year due to depression or sterss but decided to work instead. Kind of wish I hadn't now.

Poor you - I work in HR for this company and it makes my blood boil that there are other managers out there who are either completely disregarding the correct way of doing things, or aren't trained to do the job properly in the first place. I understand the need to follow the absence policies in order to improve things int he store and help colleagues at work, but I am always completely sure I understand how the whole thing makes the colleague in question feel. Like you say, if you have no experience of all of this, it is very daunting and overwhelming.

Off the record (!) if the disciplinary goes ahead and you are given a warning then you would have absolutely no problem apealing against it - in my experience, the warning would be overturned in a moment due to failure to follow company procedure.

I would urge you to see your People Manager before the hearing. Discuss how you are feeling, and how concerned you are that procedure hasn't been followed (i.e. not being given a copy of the notes, not fully understanding the process, the disciplining manager being the same one who did the investigation) and see what she says. Try not to go sick, however difficult this is, as it will just prolong the process and drag it out which is bound to make you feel worse.

You can ask any colleague to be your rep - their role is to provide moral support and to ensure fairness along with the HR manager who will also be making the notes.

Hope this helps, but please CAT me if you want more advice.

Good Luck x

Thanks poppiesmum Just got in from work and found your note. I am based at 4676 (cool i can remember my store number).

I have now got a copy of the notes. And the only copy of the grievance and disciplinary handbook that personnel had in store, am going to read it and return it.

I can't cat but could you mail me on mummyhillandtheminihills at yahoo dot co dot uk?

A checkout manager took the investigation with a counters manager taking notes. The counters manager is the one listed as being in with the people manager for the disciplinary. I have spoken to a colleague this evening who I am quite good friends with and who knows about all the stresses etc I have had this year inc my pnd who I also trust to advise me and she has agreed to go into the interview with me.

I am going to let the people manager know in the morning who is representing me.

Hello. Let me know how you get on today with your PM. It would be poor practice for the Counters manager to do the disciplinary if she took the notes in the investigation. Ideally the PM should always do the notes to ensure fairness and consistency, but this isn't always possible and in this case it should be a trained notetaker. The Counters manager can not possible give you a fair and impartial hearing in a disciplinary if she took notes in the invesigation - definately raise this with your PM today. Good Luck,

Oh, I'm not working at present (new baby) but won't look your store number up to see where you are - not fair really - I'm just happy to advise you on what you should expect in this situation. These disciplinaries take place all the time as absence is a big issue for companies and everyone must be treated consistently. However, it's important you understand why you are there and what to expect. The whole point is to address your absence and work out ways to improve your attendance, but the company must do things in the right way to be fair to you.

I sent a letter to the pm and she arranged a seperate manager to run the disciplinary who was completley unknown to me.

We went through all the absences and at the end they decided thai it was innapropriate to give me a warning. I have been advised to avoid overtime for the timebeing. They have asked to send off for a report from the GP to see if there is anything they can do to help me meet my contractual obligations though.

My advice to you would be to foolow everything poppie suggests. I bet it's intereting for you poppie to hear how the policies work on the ground. When you go back to work why don't you suggest a chat forum for staff to air their concerns about practices on the ground?