Are managers scared when the trade union calls them for a meeting?

[peppaistired]

A colleague of mine recently reported the bullying and harassment of her line manager towards her, and the manager was called to have a meeting with HR, the Union rep, and the employee.

Can someone be sacked for bullying or is it really hard to prove, and nothing will be done in the end?

Those are two different questions. To answer the first one, I can't see why a manager would be scared when a trade Union "calls them for a meeting", why would they be? But then that isn't really what happens anyway. Union reps may attend a meeting or hearing, which is not the same thing.

In answer to your second question, yes it's possible, if it's so bad as to be considered gross misconduct, or if the person is already on a final warning.

It is hard to prove bullying. Most of the time the bully will only do it when they are not in the company of others, who could be witnesses. Most people who might be able to provide a statement as a witness would not get involved. It is hard to prove intentional bullying, many bullies can talk their way out of it or introduce a sufficient element of doubt.

I dealt with a bullying case recently (as HR). I was sure the complaint against the bully was valid, but we couldn't prove it as she had an excuse for every instance of poor treatment. In the end, we said the bully (who was the line manager of the person concerned) had very poor management skills and went down the performance management route. As so often happens in these sort of situations, she went off sick, didn't want to come back and face the music and so resigned. So although we didn't actually sack her the end result was the same, as in she lost her job. A lot easier and less risky for us the employer though.

What does your employer's bullying and harassment policy say? Ours specifies that cases should be resolved by mediation where possible, and I'm guessing that's what the meeting you mention amounts to. If mediation doesn't fix it, or in situations where mediation would not be appropriate, then it's likely to go to disciplinary procedures (there will be a policy/protocol for that too).

Our bullying and harassment policy also makes it clear that it doesn't really matter whether or not the behaviour is intentional. Very often, what mediation does is alert the bully to the effect their behaviour has on the victim. Some people have an abrasive, pedantic manner without really knowing it, and are mortified to find out how damaging it can be. If they can fix it: great, problem solved. If they can't, that's sad for them, but the employer's priority needs to be to protect other employees from their behaviour.

Meetings attended by union reps are not usually scary - it is generally a positive thing for all sides to ensure correct procedure is followed. It is in the interests of everyone to get this right first time, rather than deal with expensive tribunals and litigation at a later stage. A good manager and HR team would not be phased by a union rep attending a meeting.
I can't really comment on the specific situation you describe as there is not enough detail. Is the company bullying policy being followed, is this being treated as a formal grievance (in line with a grievance policy), is this a mediation session?
A typical process would be for an independent manager to interview all parties and gather evidence before making a decision regarding any disciplinary steps that need to be taken (Verbal warning, written warning, dismissal). Mediation would usually need to be agreed by both parties.

IME managers can get intimidated by union reps, but it's more because some of them can start speaking in legal jargon about employees' rights, and the manager doesn't feel confident in dealing with them. Where I work we always accompany a manager if a union rep is attending the meeting, so it's a bit more of a level playing field.

Personally I don't mind either way whether a rep attends a meeting or not. I've enough experience to be reasonably sure that what I am doing is the right course of action, and defensible, so I'm more than open to challenge if a union rep wants to do that. I don't mind being kept on my toes, I'd rather any weaknesses in a case were identified at meeting stage than further down the line. It can actually help proceedings sometimes (if you get a good, professional rep) as they will manage the employee's expectations, calm them down if they get emotional, that sort of thing.

As a manager - no most definitely not. Unions are part of the workplace apt hey aren't a threat and shouldn't be treated as such.

Surely the manager also has the right to have their union rep. present too? Otherwise they might end up facing a mischievous malicious complaint.

Thank you everyone for your replies. Very useful information indeed.

The complaint is definitely not mischievous or malicious, and management is not allowed to join a trade union where I work as they have HR to defend them, and in my experience, they get away with murder all the time.

The line manager in question was now signed off sick for two weeks. She makes sure she makes full use of the socialist, public sector perks, but treats all below her with the corporate, tough ethos of the private sector.

Bullying is extremely serious. I know of a bullying case where there was written proof where the victim was given a very substantial pay off to leave and keep quiet and the bully kept their job. What the bully may not be aware of though, is the victim can also sue the bully personally as well as getting compensation from the company, as it comes under the same employment laws as sexual harassment etc. In this case, the line manager was bullying all his subordinates and the victim was the only one prepared to speak.out. He has documented evidence of the bully insisting on 7am meetings and 10pm meetings and forcing victim to attend meetings while on annual leave. He also had an email from the bully containing swearing and being told, basically to do what the bully told him to and not what he was actually employed to.

Bully thought he was untouchable. Doubt anything would faze him, certainly not a union rep, but really hope that the victim sued him in this case!

Thanks, YeGods. It's good to know in some cases something is done about bullying in the work place. It's so difficult to pin down and most bullies get away with it in the end.