Manager calling me at home, outside my working hours to shout at me.

[Williewarmer]

Regular poster, but have NC.

Can she do that? She had only started that day, and I had left early to collect my sick infant from Nursery. I had followed the absence policy to the letter.

She also had a major pop at me at work yesterday in front of her superior and my colleagues. There have been many other incidents in the two weeks she has been my manager. I am guessing this will continue so am keeping notes etc.

She is targeting others too, but that does not make it right. She also knows I have recently been off sick with PND and asked me what meds I am on. I am pretty sure she cannot do that either.

I work for the NHS and have done so for over 20 years. I have never ever been spoken to like that, and am still livid.

I am pretty sure that my contract does not include being contacted outside of work, unless in an emergency, which it was not.

Many thanks.

VerySmallSqueak thank you. That is very helpful.

SHe has shouted at you in front of a senior manager, your colleagues, on the phone at home, she is asking inappropriate questions about your medication.

It might not class as bullying yet, but she sailing very close to the wind. Keeping records are a good idea, as would speaking to HR.

Good luck and remember, it's not you, it's her.

I hope one of the employment lawyers on MN comes on to confirm/deny what I have said.
If not please do check with your union before you take any action on the basis of what I have said.

I am nothing more than a mouthy militant grumpy old woman,and with no legal training,just what I have learned through interest.

The very best of luck to you.It can be miserable when you're faced with this sort of shit at work,and your trying your damndest to be as fair as you possibly can - been there,seen it, done it.

Bumping hoping for more advice for you Willie.

Not sure I can add much but I have been in the same situation with a young baby, poorly, taking A/L to cover it and being pressurised to leave... Right down to the suggestions that I could not cope.

I didn't involve HR or the unions in the end but I did keep meticulous records and I got a letter from the GP saying my son was ill. After another comment I did send a letter to explain my absences and it eased for a bit until she found something else to have a go at me for.

I stuck it for nearly 4 years - I was being overtly bullied by the end and another department offered me a job after seeing what was happening. She had absolutely no shame and did it in front of another manager...

Just look for a new post... Seriously life is so short and your son needs you. Do not feel guilty or apologising for being a mother.

I recently left a job rather abruptly due to similar treatment. I got another job lined up then left with no notice. No point worrying about a reference from someone who seemed to think I was rubbish at my job! This person had been brought in to 'shake things up' and improve efficiency. I think part of the job description must have been 'mustn't be afraid of upsetting people' because she seemed to revel in grilling people about their performance etc in the middle of an open plan office. The final straw for me was a nasty email which I forwsrded to my home email and attached a copy to my notice letter to hr. I stated this persons attitude as my readon for leaving.

Your boss sounds like her in that she is power crazed, out of her depth and out of control. Keep a diary of everything and get her for bullying and harrassment
Thats what 2 of my previous colleages are doing but I just preferred the clean break.

It just seems to be so unfair to feel that it's easier to move on though (especially after 20 years).

But,by the same token,it's worth considering whether it is better in your own personal circumstances just to move on if necessary.It's only worth fighting for if it's worth fighting for - it takes a lot of energy to fight just to prove a point.

There's times I've had to just decide to leave stuff that I know isn't fair because I've fell in a barrel of shit and come out smelling of roses anyhow.

Perhaps if you also keep your eyes open for another,better,post too,op,and you could have the last laugh regardless!

Just worth a thought,but doesn't mean you shouldn't battle for what you have if that's what you want to keep.

Thank you so much, all of you, for your caring helpful comments, and sharing of experiences. It has helped me so much

I love my job, and am very very good at it. I work in a specialism, and have looked for posts elsewhere, but within commutable distance. I want to stay in the same area of work. But at the same time I don't want to desert my colleagues or even let her win.

I will bide my time, and speak further with the union, keep notes, start copying in HR, and will tackle her head on about the time off. And if I feel I need to be off to look after my sick child, then I will be, without the guilt.

I am funding further training in my own time so hopefully one day I can move into private practice.

Thanks again x

She sounds like she has some people skills issues - not a good manager BUT you said you had to reschedule your clients - presumably patients booked for a consultation that day who you had to ring up and cancel. I should think that is at the root of the problem - NHS clients being cancelled on the day. Even if your specialism is not one where initial time to treat targets apply, if your specialism is diagnostic or therapeutic, your cancellations will have a real impact on achievement of the patient care pathway.

Whilst all of your reasons for time off are valid and understandable, the NHS can't run a service where patients are repeatedly canceled on the day - you said 6 times in 5 weeks. I'm surprised that HR had not been involved so far - that is definitely the right route for both you and the service.

BeckAndCall I totally see the concern about cancellations and targets, but feel that there should be a system in place to ensure my clients are seen by my colleagues in the event of me being off for whatever reason. There are sufficient staff, and with a bit of planning this would be easily achieveable. I have previously submitted plans on how this could be achieved. At present clients are only seen by other staff if the nurse is off for two consecutive weeks. It is a counselling based service, not an emergency service, and the actual medication therapy continues regardless. Just to clarify it was six days spanning two episodes, one of 2 days, the other 4 days. My husband took time off for the other days.

It sounds like you've thought it through, OP if I were your manager I'd see your suggestions for covering the service as very helpful.

I wouldn't be afraid of involving HR yourself, either - they should be impartial in this and could be helpful to you in addressing the new manager"s approach?

Thanks BeckAndCall, I will speak with HR tomorrow.

I am going to namechange back now, but will continue to read if anyone else posts.

Thanks again.

While I can completely get where Beck is coming from with regard to covering your absence (and as an NHS user like most of us,I can understand the need to keep patient appointments where possible) I still think that the ultimate responsibility with covering legitimate staff absence lies with management.And it seems you've gone a long way with providing a plan to enable that,anyhow.

However important your job is,and whatever your role,we are all human,and if you need to take reasonable time off for legitimate reasons this should be made possible for you without pressure.

All things need consideration but you need to defend your corner for your own needs,as no one else will do it for you.

You've been given some good advice here OP but I must just address the point of whether your manager is 'allowed' to contact you at home.

Employment law isn't that prescriptive. Of course there can be no law against managers contacting people at home as sometimes this is necessary or appropriate. And there couldn't be a law governing what can and can't be discussed in conversations that take place while the employee is home either, that would be completely unworkable.

So it's really not as simple as saying she "can't" do that.

It's not specifically unlawful, however it is unprofessional, inappropriate and she runs the serious risk of a claim of bullying/harassment from you. It's absolutely fine to complain about this, and I think you are taking the right steps, I just wouldn't want you to put in a grievance that she "can't" do that as it's not specifically the case.

Thank you for straightening that out flowery.I am still (self) learning so I wouldn't want someone to wrongly act on what I say,plus you have taught me something.

I expect from my DH's position as a union rep.he would be arguing on behalf of the union member,so would put it to them that it isn't acceptable to contact a union member at home by phone to discipline them - as that kind of puts them on the back foot when it comes to asserting their right to have their union rep present in a disciplinary meeting.

I always find it quite difficult to determine what is actual employment law,and what is poor practice or agreed by a set of guidelines that most adhere to.

But that's the difference between an amateur gobshite like me,and a professional like flowery who's studied hard to get where she is now.

Your DH is right that is it unacceptable, I would agree there. It's just the terminology really isn't it? By using "can't", implying it's specifically not allowed, the OP would immediately give the manager a hook to defend herself with, something to pick holes in the grievance with.

It would be very difficult for anyone objective to disagree with it being completely inappropriate and unacceptable though, and that should always be the aim of a grievance- to make it impossible for someone objective to disagree.

Yes,I see the difference there flowery.
Subtle,but important.
Thanks!

Poor management, with the aggression etc but off 6 times in 5 weeks is a lot. Your patients presumably need the service and consistency of care matters. It is not okay because you are lucky enough to be able to use annual leave at no notice.

Could you look at emergency nanny care for your ds on an ongoing basis or finding a childminder/nanny who would be able to look after him when ill?

It is time to involve HR

I would check the wording of your contract re being called at home. In mine, it actually states that out-of-hours contact may be made (and occasionally working required) if there is an emergency. It's highly unlikely that my sort of work would ever have the sort of emergency that can't wait til the next working day, but if your manager is calling you outwith your normal hours, then you should ask her to state clearly the exact reason for the call, and then follow that up with an email entitled 'Email to confirm output of phonecall received at 2pm, Tues 1st April, about Issue X'. If she can't give a clear reason, ask her to email you instead and pick it up when you're next in. If she is getting irate at you on the phone, I'd work on the same principle as call centre staff - they are allowed to hang up if they are getting abuse/sworn at. So if she is doing that, say to her (talk over her calmly if she's shouting or wait til she pauses for breath) that you aren't in a position to have this discussion until she's calmed down and can speak to you in a professional manner, so you'll be hanging up now, and could she please email you with details of the exact problem so you can review it and respond to it in full. Then email her straight away (copying in HR/line manager etc) to say that you're sorry you couldn't speak to her on the phone, this was because she was angry, not listening to you, and you couldn't get a clear explanation of the problem, so could she please respond to this email and tell you what the problem is. That way you're being proactive about contacting her/resolving whatever problem she's come up with, rather than waiting for her to go off on one. I know you're not keen on involving the union and that HR aren't always much use, so what about speaking to her line manager? Could you email her, her line manager and yours, asking for a meeting to discuss ways of working, i.e. her attitude to you? Hope you get it sorted one way or another...