Does my employer 'own me' outside contracted hours?

[Anniemousse]

Ok, not quite as dramatic as that, but in the course of some discussions with manager and HR about my stress level at work and various issues leading to it HR claim thay are able to require me to work other hours outside my contracted hours.

Is this the case?

I have a disabled child and have certain commitments that must be carried out directly with that child, and indirectly such as school meetings, medical appointments etc. This is why I work part time. I have arranged my commitments for my child around my contracted hours.

I have been under increasing pressure to swap things around at home to provide cover at work. I have had to dig my feet in and say, I will help you out and come in next Thursday, but can't come until x o'clock as I have to do xyz with dc.

I have a clear job plan, hours of work and contracted sessions. HR claim they can require me to work other sessions and I am not able to refuse UNLESS we have an agreement (which they are keen to get in place) regarding carer responsbilities and flexible working.

If I had a second job on the other days, could one of my employers require me to work outside of hours?

Can't get my head round it at all! Do I need special permission because of personal circumstances to not be obliged to work outside contracted sessions?

Thanks

I'm not sure they can make you work outside contracted hours.
My contract is to work at the weekend. They are always asking me to do overtime during the week. I can accept if I want to or decline without any comeback.

What does your contract say?

That how I thought it was ihatethecold, I have been corrected!

Depends on your contract. Mine is 9-5 but whatever hours are necessary to complete my duties. I also have to get permission to take on any other work.

I am not sure about my contract Brian, will need to dig it out (have been there 13 years!)
But I have an agreed job plan, signed every year at appraisal. It is very specific
Eg Mondays 9-5 project A
Wednesdays 8-7 project B

Etc

I am happy to flexible, where it suits my family life. I'm just not sure about this obligation, without an agreed change in job plan

Does their agreement mean they want to write a new contract? I wouldn't sign anything without legal advice, be very careful.

If they are saying you have to do these other hours, I would look into your entitlement to holiday/sick pay.

I get very little due to having very few contracted hours but that's my choice.

You do need to dig out your contract and see what it says about working hours, flexibility and overtime.

No they want us to draw up a flexible working agreement, Brian, which stipluates which sessions I am unavailable.
Looking through contract now.

Well, I have found this in my T&Cs
"Non emergency work (outside contracted working hours) during weekdays or at weekends will only be scheduled by mutual agreement between the [employee] and his or her manager, or in accordance with the [employee's] contracted responsibilities or hours of employment."

Ok, so quote that back to them!

Well that sentence doesn't actually make sense anyway, but yes I agree quote it at them.

So, as I originally thought, it isn't usual practice for an employer to be able to call on you outside of contracted hours, unless mutually agreeable?

I know it sounds obvious, that's what contracted hours are , but this was challenged by the HR officer today.

I was told "it's not a case of you considering whether you can work those sessions, it's the other way around, it's a case of us considering your case for being unable to work them"

I don't get this. They are keen to get an agreement in place to formalise things, but they are pressuring you in the interim?

Quote that back to them and sign nothing. It sounds odd.

Yes, one of the triggers for my stress has been pressure to do extra. I have had to be quite firm recently that I could only do extra as it suited my domestic circumstances. If I am to use that as a reason not to do EXTRA work, I must have a flexible working agreement which details, for example, I can never do Thursdays between 12-2 and must not be asked.

It makes no sense to me.

In addition, i am feeling somewhat backfooted by them. I sent an email to a senior colleague yesterday, stating how stressed I am feeling and detailing the undue pressure I am under from several different areas. I suggested she refer it on if she wasn't the person to manage this.
Today, my (new) manager and HR officer arrived, without notice and spoke to me about my concerns, and their suggestions/advice for 2 hours. I didn't take notes, which I regret. I would have preferred to take someone with me for support, but didn't have the opportunity. I don't feel I represented myself as well as I could, if I had had some notice to gather my thoughts and present them coherently.

Now I feel as if I need to write everything up and send them a summary of what was discussed as evidence.

Sorry, how rude, I haven't yet thanked you all for your thoughts

If you feel you need back up, consider dropping into your local CAB or law centre for free advice.

Next time ask them to arrange some one to take minutes. Which can be signed if you agree they are accurate.

2 hours??? my goodness.

I would email HR and say "that was a long meeting and I did not have opportunity to come prepared to take notes or to have someone accompany me. Please could you let me have a summary of what was discussed so that I can consider more fully".

That way, it's them doing the work to make notes, then you can see if there's anything pertinent you remember which was missed out. You'll also have the chance to ask further questions as a result.

If they're looking to confirm in which hours you might be flexible, is it the case that you can literally work your agreed hours and that's it? In which case, make sure that anything you agree states exactly that. They're trying to work out which hours might be flexible within their "mutually agreeable" terms. In your case, it may well be nothing.

Are you in a union?

Thanks, that's a good plan Mary. Must admit my heart was sinking at the thought of more work!

My availabilty for extra work varies week to week, depending on appointments and other such things. It's impossible to nail down fully.

I was happy to be asked, if they were happy to take no for an answer. One person has unfortunately been trying to pressure me and annoyed that I have said no, but they are persisting. It's one of a few things that I raised as a trigger.

Not in a union, no.

"So, as I originally thought, it isn't usual practice for an employer to be able to call on you outside of contracted hours, unless mutually agreeable?"

Well not quite. It is usual practice in lots of cases, because it depends on the individual contract. It's very normal for a contract to have a blanket "extra as required" clause, and yes if yours had that and you wanted to effectively remove it, a flexible working request would be the way to go.

But your contract doesn't say that at all, it says mutual agreement. Stick to your guns and say you don't appreciate being pressurized in this way.

Thanks flowery,that makes sense.