Signed off as sick without being advised as such - is it legal??

[Madamecastafiore]

Hi knowledgeable people.

I wonder if someone could give me some advice. I have been off since Mid June after making a complaint about a couple of people at work and racism issues.

Am now 25 weeks pregnant and was at the tine of the complaint told to go home, I was told that I would be on full pay and an investigation was started.

I have seen occupational health who advised that I should not go back to work until the issue was resolved. The issue has now been resolved (as much as the organisation I work for ever resolves anything - pick up carpet and sweep underneath!!) and I am due to return to work tomorrow after seeing occupational health again today.

I have never been signed off sick, never been asked for a certificate but upon being paid found out that I have been put on half pay (sick pay since the beginning of July) on the request of my manager.

Now I would not have gone back to work regardless and have been on holiday for 2 weeks of the period I have been off of work but am a bit shocked that they told me to not go into work and that I would be on full pay and at no time was I advised that this would be changing. I am not scraping the barrel for money but this change to my income will make a difference when it comes to my maternity pay which is what is bothering me most. (I do have an email stating that I would be paid full pay and have nothing stating that I would be paid anything less or be signed off as being sick!)

Can they tell me not to come into work and then just decide to pay me as though I am sick? I could not have worked as the anxiety I was suffering was immense and if I had gone back I would have had to work with the people who I had put in a complaint about and their behaviour was just awful.

No, of course they cant. They are at it. Do you have a union rep that you can speak to?

Your work have a duty of care to protect you from harassment in the workplace and they have been shown to be lacking in this, therefore until it is fixed you should be on full pay, it HAD made you sick but because of a failure on their part which they seem to have admitted...

I would call your union and then call personnel and act stupid to see if they can explain and "help" your confusion on this matter...

I have had wages issues around the time of my maternity leave being calculated and I know full well how frustraing it can be!

hang in there and I hope you get it sorted out!

Thanks Hazeydays.

I feel like I am being bloody stabbed in the back from every angle now - was my manager which decided I should bee put on sick pay rather than full pay and it is her I have the email stating I would be on full pay from.

Am not part of a Union but I rang one of our HR offices and they didn't comment one way or another just said they would look into it.

Am dredding returning to work tomorrow - do not have to go back to same building but am getting my self in a right pickle none the less.

My complaint of victimisation was not upheld (it is perfectly ok to complain about someone saying you are saying things which are racist and apparently having someone constantly attacking you verbally is ok!!) and the racism has apparently been dealt with - although it was stated to me that it was not meant to cause offense, why it matters is beyond me - it did cause offence!!

Your employers are just hopeless, aren't they? I believe in the cock-up theory, rather than the conspiracy theory, though. They sound like they are incompetent, rather than malicious.

Just treat it as a mistake: I was told that I would be on full pay, I have not received my full pay, therefore you owe you the difference.

meant to say - therefore you owe me the difference.

Thanks Fubbsy - yes they are pretty hopeless.

I just look forward to the day I start my maternity leave with so much pleasure.

Have just spoken to Occupational Health and they said that it is not right that I was signed off sick by the Trust!

Then got a call from HR saying that the Head of HR is saying that I was signed off because Occupational Health said I was not fit to work and it wasn't communicated to me because I was on annual leave (not until 2 weeks after the decision was made to sign me off sick without my knowledge!!)

I was bloody told not to go back until this was sorted out.

AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!

Have phoned Occupational Health lady and am awaiting her call.

Seriously roll on 34 weeks.

But why would you be seeing occupational health if you were told to stay of work whilst an investigation into your complaint was being made? Somewhere in there health and complaint have been inter-changed. I dont understand by someone who raises a complaint is the one asked not to come to work it would usually be the other party or parties who are asked to stay away whilst things are investigated.

Was told to see occupational health as they were concerned about the effect of the stress on my pregnancy.

No, I thought perhaps I would be the one who was allowed to stay in work but as normal with the NHS things are never that simple. They got to stay working whilst I was left at home to stew and worry about what was happening. Evan after the lady sent an email detailing why she used the racist language nothing was done for quite a while and apparently she didn't mean to cause offense with her language so that makes it not quite as bad!!!!

Did they put you onto sick pay after the situation was dealt with? Ie was it dealt with by the beginning of July? And I agree-the lines are very blurred between sickness and the other situation.

No the situation was not resolved when they swapped me onto sick pay. Occupational Health had said that I could not return to work until it was sorted as it was causing me so much stress.

I saw head of HR and a manager for a meeting on the Tuesday before my annual leave and was told that I would have received a letter detailing the outcomes when I returned from my holiday. It was here when I got back.

Effectively they are saying that I should be on sick pay because Occupational Health said I was unfit to work but I was unfit to work due to a situation that they had effectively let happen - they have agreed that the situation should have been dealt with a long time previously when the relationships started deteriorating (still not sure why one of the ladies decided to hate me but there you go) and they are putting in procedures to make sure things are dealt with in a more timely manner in future.

They paid me sick from the time I saw Occupational Health to the time I went on holiday and then swapped me back to normal pay whilst I was on holiday.

Did OH actually say you were unfit to work?

Apparently that is what they told HR that I was unfit to work until the issue had been sorted out due to the stress the issue was causing me.

Occupational Health just told me at the meeting I had with them that they were going to advise HR that I should stay off until the matter had been sorted.

Am confused as to how they can sign me off sick without my knowledge and then sign me back on?????

I dont understand this either but I take on board what fubbsy is saying that much of what has been happening may be due to mindless incomptetence ( i work in the NHS also) that does you no favours...

I would go back to occupational health and explain that you are confused and it didnt seem clear to you that they were even able to sign you off as sick. I have also been at occ health because of stress during my pregnancy but have been too stroppy and bloody minded to go off sick (i'll be damned if I'll be pushed out of my job by bullys blah blah blah)... anyways....

stress in the workplace is now identified as a marker within H&S policy and as such your risk assessment for pregnancy should have had this covered within it. certainly after seeing occ health this should have DEFINATELY been completed...
try and stay calm when you go back, sad b***s not worth stressing you and the baby out over.

ask your boss for a copy of all the pregnancy risk assessments that they have done for you, if you can, ask occ health what their advice to your boss , in fact they should have compiled a report so I would ask that you get a copy of this which I feel they should have given you at the time.

most of all and likely hardest to do is try and stay calm. If you were given no clarity that you would suffer financially by the stress in the workplace I cannot see that it is legitimate to take that money from you.

Thanks Hazeydays.

Was just shocked that they could do this. If they told me that I ws not to return to work until this was sorted out and I went against their advice and something had happened to the baby I would not have had a leg to stand on - I was just doing as they told me to do and did not expect for a minute that they would sign me off - I would have thought at least they would have to advise me that they were going to do this and I cannot understand their reasoning that as soon as I went on holiday I was deemed not to be sick anymore????

The NHS is shit isn't it for this sort of thing. Honestly, I have been screamed at, had fingers pointed in my face, been told scathingly in a how hideous it is to work with me, had my husband slagged off, had someone storm out of the office saying 'Oh that's right everyone loves MC', honestly it goes on and on to the stage where opening my mouth was scary as I did not know if what I said would cause the utmost offence. And they have put it down not to bullying or victimisation but privacy, respect and dignity???? Obviously it is fine to make someone's life a misery and then put in a complaint about them when you baulk at the racism that you are expected not to be too upset about as it wan;t meant to cause offense - obviously I am too sensitive by far and all this is normal behaviour for other people.

Honestly if I wrote on here what this woman does and says to me people would be shocked - I seriously think she has some sort of personality disorder because normal sane people just do not behave in such a manner.

But anyway I digress.

OH said that they cannot understand why they are saying I was swapped over to sick pay as I had been advised not to come into work - at no point was I advised to go to my doctor and get a certificate - infact I do not have a certificate for the time I was off.

And thinking about it the delay in seeing me was due to HR not being able to see sooner!! I was sitting at home stewing hoping it would be over soon and they were dragging their heels!

Hi MC, sorry to hear you are having issues at work, believe me I know from experience what it is like to be on the receiving end of such antics.

Sometimes it can be helpful to be in a Union for situations like this, please consider joining one just in case there is a next time? (You could ask but they probably wouldn't help this time even if you joined now).

It sounds like your manager is misunderstanding what is going on and bumbling through or trying to pull a fast one and get out of paying your full maternity pay maybe?

I say this as Occupational Health cannot sign you off sick as such, only you for the first seven days as a self certificate or your GP after that could do this.

However you can be suspended on medical grounds in certain (health and safety related, including high risk pregnancy) circumstances for a short period of time, or suspended on other grounds, e.g. disciplinary investigation, but either of these situations would be on full pay and not sick pay, and especially not half pay sick pay!!

I suggest bluffing it out along the "confusion" lines, although I would definitely put it in writing, and maybe consider an employment solicitor to help if you still get nowhere, depending on how you feel and how much money you are losing!

Not sure why you should be on half pay, this usually starts at 6mths off sick, how long have you been employed by the nhs?

Ah crossed posts with coconut

Thanks coconut. I had a fair period of time off at the end of the last year due to post viral arthritis so am on pro ratad sick pay!

I will speak to our employee assistance people and see what they say. They have legal people there.

I just want to be able to tackle the issue with facts and the law behind me as they are just saying I was not fit to go to work so all they were obliged to do was pay me sick pay.

It's just so bloody unfair IMO!!!

Did you also consult with your gp, if so and he didn't sign you off, it's strange that o.h. Think you unfit for work. They certainly should have performed arise assessment for stress, considered moving you to a different dept. which would have reduced your stress. Oh. Now tend to discourage being off for sickness and usually in line with hr want to try anything to keep you at work.

Yes I saw GP but as had been told to stay at home on full pay didn't get certificate as didn't think needed one.

OH said it was detrimental to my health to go back to work until issue had been sorted due to the stress what with me being pregnant. It is the time inbetween me seeing OH and finally getting a meeting with HR that they have decided to pay me sick pay for and then they put me back on normal pay when I went on holiday.

Dr was willing to sign me off too just didn't think needed it after being told to stay off.

Hi MC, it doesn't matter if you have already been off sick and used some of your contractual sick pay allowance. If you are suspended, it should be on full pay, if you are medically suspended it should be on full pay, and even if your GP had signed you off sick in the usual way you would still be on full pay due to pregnancy related illness and or work related ill health!!

The law is behind you on this one, you just need to be assertive with the managers, they rely on your not being bothered or not knowing your rights to get away with not paying you. As this is likely to reduce your maternity pay also, you would likely have a claim for sex discrimination.

Good Luck

I could kiss you coconut. That is exactly what I need to be able to tackle this. Proper legal stuff thank you so much.

I will draft an email to the HR Manager tomorrow and see where it takes it!

Thank you.