childminders - ratios of carers to children

[dm2]

How many children can a childminder look after at one time?
I've been looking at childcarelink.gov.uk for the list of local registered childminders and one of them claims to have 21 vacancies. Is the 1 person to 3 under2s ratio relevant for childminders? What happens if they have children of different ages? Anyone know?

I don't know either but I would suggest that more than 3 kids becomes a lot for a chilminder... if they are meant to really look after the kids on your behalf (of course this doesn't apply to mothers of quadruplets or large families ;-) !!!)

I have been a registered childminder for 15 years.

Up to three 0-5, only one under 12 months

Up to three 5 -8 years

Any number of over 8's as long as there is space and that the under 8's care in not compromised in any way.

Go to www.ncma.org.uk our website there is lots of info there and contact details for a regional office near to where you live. Or contact the children's information service, ask for a list and they will also give the the guidelines document which (in Herts ) is very useful. Good luck

If it helps... which I doubt... I seem to recall from my Playgroup days, that our playgroup ratio was supposed to be 1:8 or better (ie, or less).

Playgroups are of course different to childminders... but it may give you an idea of how many children one person could be expected to care for.

With childminders ratios, you need to take into account their own children - as they will be counted in the ratio.

From what I remember from my 'assiting a childminder part of my NNEB course', the local authority can register childminders for varying numbers of children - though as Ali notes, there are guidelines as to now many of each age... though twins, triplets and quads do mean that these guidelines are not set in stone.

I would suggest that to get a definitive answer, contact you local Social Services office, and ask to speak to a Day Care Officer. They should be able to give you further information about childminders and ratios.

Sorry, forgot to say those numbers include the childminder's own children. They are the maximum number allowed in each category!

dm2 if you are looking for a childminder, consider this: do you really want your child to be one amongst 8 under eights? This, as Alibubbles has said, is the legal maximum and your childminder could have them all full time. But I would say, unless your childminder is superpowered and very experienced, this is a huge number of children to pack into one home with one minder. The older ones will, of course be there for just a few hours since they will be picked up from school, but still...

I have to say that most of the childminders I have visited over the years (we have gone through the choosing process 5 or 6 times), have had less than this, or, if they had their quota of 8 chilren, many were part time. I did find, though, that some childminders had a bit of a 'pack-them-in' view ( as I suppose some nurseries do) and this worried me and I avoided them. It seems more of an act of faith to give a young child over to a very busy childminder, even if she comes highly recommended.

My experiences with childminders have been really positive on the whole, hence my continued reliance on them. But I have never put my child with a childminder who has anything like their full legal quota of children. Most childminders I have known, seem, in any case, to stop far short of this.

Thanks everyone - I do have the local council's info on child care services but it is worded badly so I wasn't certain about the ratios. On second reading I think it is as Alibubbles quoted.

Tigermoth - I am going through a tough time at the moment as I have to go back to work (to pay mortgage) and although I put ds's name on the waiting lists over a year ago there is no space for him at the local nurseries. (Spent yesterday morning in tears as the last nursery told me there was no space becoming available in the baby room).

I have been told that I may be offered 2 days a week at one nursery but I need to work at least three days a week. A family member may be able to take him for the third day but I'm not convinced of her childminding skills (tends to get v.stressed if he cries and he is not an 'easy' baby).
So, I'm investigating local childminders and most of them do seem to take the maximum number of children possible (although probably not 21 that must be a typo). As ds is a bit of a handful, I really want to leave him with someone who will have time to give him attention. So the search continues!

Alibubbles - do you mind me asking, do you think that I'm underestimating childminders' abilities because I'm finding it hard enough,as a first-time mum, to cope with one baby?

dm2, hope you find a solution soon. I think that looking for childcare is always worse the first time round. It bought me to tears too.

BTW having read my message again, I made the mistake of saying that a childminder can have a maximum of eight under 8's. If is, of course, six. Hope I didn't add to your stress. The situation isn't quite so gloom and doom.

With luck, you have only the one day to sort out with a childminder. If your son is offered a place at the nursery, you could always try contacting the nursery direct about childminders for the third day. It is very possible that some childminders are already known to them, via nursey pick-ups or through the staff. These childminders may be able to find a day's space for your son. Ask if you can also put a notice on the nursery noticeboard.

Also, if you are using a list of childminders sent via your council, do make sure you always have the latest one. Our local lists are updated monthly. The vacancies and names change quite rapidly.

Hope it all works out. I know how horrible the choosing process can be. But it does all fall into place eventually. Keep phoning round and you'll get there!

thanks tigermoth, I'm feeling a bit more positive today. Good idea about asking the nursery about childminders.

Dm2 , Sorry I hadn't seen your posts. No I don't think you are unnatuarlly woorried about a childminder's ability to cope. Some are some are bad and some are very good and some very bad!

I, like Tigermoth says, never work to my full capacity, I like to be able to give each child the care, love cuddles and attention that they are due. I culd have 6, but I only have two at a time with a baby., and an range of ages is better, ie a baby a 2yr old and a 3yr old

If I take on a new baby, I always make sure that I am going to have enough time to spend just sitting cuddling the baby, playing pata cake, finger rhymes, stretching arms and singing games, talking to her on a one to one, time for her without the other children around by manipulating nap times etc. It is so important to have face to face contact and physical touch, it is all too easy to pop a baby in a bouncy chair and let her watch the others.

Ask a childminder if she has a treasure basket - a basket full of exciting tactile objects for the baby to explore at her own pace, contents vary, a shell, cork, sponge, keys, metal spoon , wooden spoon, cotton reel, velevet cloth, egg whisk(small) woollen ball, a lemon, fir cone, pebbles shaving brush, napkin ring , they can be changed and added to all the time. I could go on for ever!! But I think you get the idea!

This is to stimulate their developing senses and understanding, engage their interest and let them expore objects safely themselves. It is also fascinating to watch!
Heuristic play is so important for babies, they also need safe places to sit and roll, I feel very passionate about the amount of care that under ones get, they deserve the very best care possible. That's why I am very anti nursery for under 2's, I believe a baby is better off in the home environment for the first two years. I know a lot of people prefer the relative"safety" of a nursery, and also find it easier to hand their child over to a nursery as it it is more impersonal and the parent does not have to get too inviolved in the nursery and this in turn helps the guilt factor some parents feel about handing their child over. Some parents resent the affection childminders show to their children, they feel that the relationship can be too close, I know I have experienced it and since made sure that the people whose children I look after are secure with the fact that my whole family will be involved in their child's welfare and wellbeing.

I am lucky that the parent's of the childen I look after are highly delighted that their child stuggles away from them to come to my arms in the morning and barely waves goodbye,(they also don't want to go home! )but they know the child is secure, happy and contented, what more could they want!

Sorry for a long post, it is a subject as I said that I feel very passionate about. These children are our future and deserve the best care.

Allibubbles, you are clearly a dedicated and fab childminder. I wish you lived in SE London because people like you are thin on the ground round here...
We are very happy with our son's nursery but if we ever produce another one I think I'd want to explore using a good childminder until he/she was a year old at least.

Alibubbles - thank you, thank you, thank you, yes I meant to type it three times. Reading your post has made me realise there must be some great childminders out there - I hope I can find one as good as you.
I would really want someone who would do the same things with him as I would if I were at home - cuddles, play, songs, rolling around on the floor etc. (Arghh.. I'm going to miss it!).

Thank you Dm2, there are a lot of childminders like me out there, a simple piece of advice, always try to find one who is a member of the NCMA, if they are, they are generally more committed because it costs a lot of money just for the membership. They are also nearly always trained, everyone should now have at least the ICP (introduction to childminding practice,) then DCP - developing CP and Extending CP, the whole three is the CCP - certificate in childminding practice. I did it in June 2000.

Ask a minder if she/he has done any of the courses, if no, do they intend to. If they say no, they've been minding a long while, and don't need training. don't accept that as an answer, or evidence thatthey are truly dedicated or upto date. I have been doing it 15 years, and as a trained nanny, but I wanted to show the parents of the children that I care for that I really do care about their children and am prepared to spend my own time and money at college. - It was great fun anyway, I really enjoyed it, and it also made me, an experienced minder more reflective of my practice.

It made me think more about best practice, quality and standards.I have no worries whatsoever about OFSTED coming to inspect me as I know that I more than meet the required criteria, I am also proud of what I do. I don't do it for "pin money" I do it as a professional and my fees reflect that. I always have a waiting list and my under 8's officer alsways knew which people to refer to me. as she knew my standards were high, not just in my working practice but in the families I would look after!

Thanks from me too, Alibubbles. What a lot of useful inside knowledge! What did we all do before mumsnet?

What did we all do before mumsnet?
Well, there was Parenting Forum on Excite but that was instant chat, so not quite so good. Plus there was the NCT Coffee E-mail list, great way of making new friends.

DM2, would like to add to those positive comments about childminders. My ds has been with his for nearly two years and I could not hope to find a more dedicated and loving carer for him. She is a qualified nanny and like Alibubbles, she regularly attends courses and sees herself as a professional. Her property is registered for no more than 4 under fives, which suits us very well.
Good luck, I'm sure you'll find someone great too.

thanks Bugsy

Dm2 - there are lots of good childminders out there. My daughter has 2 - one from when she was 4 months old, who is basically a second mother, and who looks after her in school holidays. She is currently taking an OU course in child development.

The other is for after school. The husband of the after-school one has even taken the necessary course and registered as a childminder in order that he can assist his wife if she is ill etc! She is always patiently playing games or doing something creative with her when I collect her. Like Bugsy's, she too is a qualified nanny and sees herself as a professional.

I'm not being a turn tail here, but there is something you have to bear in mind when you find that wonderful childminder: she may stop childminding. At least with a nursery you are more assured of some continuity, even if the nursery nurses leave.

This has happened to me twice, once with each son. Each time I had a satisfactory personal and professional relationship with the childminder - I am still in friendly contact with them, I hasten to add.

Finding another childminder can be temporarily traumatic for all concerned. But I have to say that each son settled down extremely well with their wonderful childminder no 2 each time.

However, who wants to go through this? So, I would say it is very important to determine how long your prospective childminder has been looking after children. Also, are they nearing retirement age?

Incidently, the very good childminders who gave up on my sons had both started childminding quite recently, so I'm left wondering if my sweet sons put them off the job for life!