Retraining as a Teacher - has anyone?

[shanti]

Has anyone retrained as a teacher since having kids? What is it like? Am just considering doing it now.Also would be v interested to hear from teachers who are also mothers. What are the logistics like? All my childless friends who teach spend the first week of every holiday comatose in bed. Clearly you can't do this with your own children. What are the solutions? Very supportive partner? Superhuman strength? Vitamins? I just want to have realistic expectations of what it's going to be like, both training and working as a teacher!
Shants.

And thanks for your message, Monkey, re my children not having their father around for Xmas.

Why should I not expect a lot from my children's teachers, within their terms of employment? In turn, teachers expect (and IME, receive) high standards from parents. Indeed I, and I'm sure you too, expect equally high standards in all your dealings with others and reciprocate in kind.

Teachers are no different to anyone else who has a fixed job of work. There are plenty of others with rigid jobs, such as my nurse niece who was not permitted to visit her dying grandfather, and my DH, as noted earlier. We all know what is entailed with our jobs and have to accept it, warts and all, because that's life.

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I cannot believe what I have read on here, from the last couple of comments, SueDonim and RobinW. Maybe both of you should try teaching a class of 13/14 year olds for a week or two and then reconsider your views.

I cannot believe that all you can see are these 'wonderful' long holidays and that its a 'well paid' job, is that why there are more teachers resigning now, and why more leave due to stress related illness.

Two years ago my MIL had to take early retirement as she could no longer cope with the abuse that she had to take daily from the children she was meant to be teaching. In the past five years she was given verbal abuse daily and was physically threatened as well including on one occassion by a 13 year old with a knife.

So this is an easy job, and also the parents are helpful are they? Maybe at your childs school, but certainly not everywhere, often they are more badly behaved than their children, and often throw in comments like, 'my solicitor will be in touch', now how is that for parental support!

BTW all the experiences I'm referring to did not happen in a deprived inner city school, they happened in a Hampshire secondary school in an affluent area.

Parents need to support teachers, not treat them like well paid childminders.

Right I'll step down off my soapbox now!!!

just wonder how you're feeling about all this Shanti? Have you decided ? LOL

Those sorts of restrictions aren't confined to the teaching profession. My husband works for a bank and wasn't able to take a single day off for the recent birth of our daughter due to the pressures of work. His firm has no provision for paternity leave at all. Fortunately I delivered on a Saturday.

I wonder why you feel I shouldn't expect high standards from teachers, Fairy? Wouldn't you expect high standards from your midwife, or from your binman, come to that?

I'm sorry about your MIL but I have never, ever condoned violence, or any other sort of misbehaviour, in my children, at home, at school or anywhere else. Nor do I regard school as childcare - it's that sort of jibe that shows the attitude some teachers have to parents.

To me, it isn't about whether a job is easy or hard it's about whether any one profession should be more 'special' than another. Lots of people do hard, stressful jobs and either get on with it or vote with their feet.

Maybe I'm just cynical, having been on the receiving end over the years of disinterested, unsupportive, unprofessional and in one case, a paedophile teacher. Thank goodness, we now have the most wonderful teachers for our children. They are the best, they receive unstinting support from parents and it shows in many, many ways.

Robinw, school trips, arrggh, the expense! Last year my DD's trip cost £400 - a lot of money.

I have to say I find this all rather tedius. Shanti asked for comments, plus and minus re:teaching. I gave a comment regarding my experience to add to a point madmaz amongst others made. Now people are pointing out the obvious, that other jobs are restrictive and stressful (we all know) and now plenty of comments about professionalism, or lack of, amongst teachers. Another point for you to add to your list, Shanti. There is always someone who wants to critisise teachers, and the entire profession based on a personal experience. This, IMO is similar to someone saying they'd never work for a woman after they (or a friend of a friend) had a bad experience with a previous boss who happened to be female.

I do think it was tough to have met with such hostility re: my wedding. I don't think it was unreasonable or unprofessional to want to get married on a particular day. It was the only day that all factors coincided - family, church availablity etc. I could have got married at a later date, but I had already waited a long time to get married and I simply did not want to wait another few months. I don't think that's unprofessional. No one would have batted an eye lid if I'd said I had a dental appointment , or, like I said, was going to someone else's wedding. And it wasn't an exceptionally busy time. It was a day when I didn't have a full time table, and the last day of a half term, and in my school at least the 'absence' rate on such as day was often 50% or more.

And to respond to some of robinw's comments.

While there are indeed people worse paid than teachers (there's really no need to state that) it is still not a fair point to say that they are well paid. 5 years of further education for that salary?

And you seem to think it is unreasonable for teachers to not pay to go on school trips. Do you expect everyone to actually pay to do innumerable hours of over time or just teachers? You seem to think that school trips are a burden, mainly for financial and safety reasons. Fair enough. Then don't send your child. They might complain, but then not every child gets to go. They'll get over it.

Organising a trip for dozens of children, particularly abroad takes an unbelievable amount of work and effort. I did it for many reasons, pupil pressure, paental pressure, departmental pressure, because the head specifically asked me to, but also because despite the hard work and level of responsibility it was also enjoyable, especially when children got to experience things they otherwise never would.

And while Suedonim says she disagrees with violence etc, it nevertheless is part and parcel of every day teaching life for the majority of teachers. In my first year I was subjected to daily abuse, verbal, physical and sexual. I received very little support, either from parents of some of the pupile that did these things, or from the school. I was told quite candidly that every year a new female teacher had this, and next year they'd move on. Sure enough this is what happened. So you're right, thanks robinw, after the first year my job did get a whole lot easier - someone else new and female came along and took over this priviliged position.

Most parents were unsupportive. Either they refused to believe their child could behave the way they did, or they didn't care, or they didn't know how to deal with it, so ignored it, or asked us to beat them (thier words).

Again, not all schools are unsupportive of their staff, not all pupils are so badly behaved and not all parents are unsupportive. However, these are very common problems experienced by many many teachers, and if Shanti asked for opinions she's got the right to receive them.

Sorry if you find it tedious Monkey but your initial post advised Shanti not to consider teaching solely because you weren't allowed to take a day off during term time in order to get married. Personally I think it is therefore entirely valid to point out that this would also be the case in a wide number of professions and therefore is not that big a deal.

Why do teachers feel the need to say it is the most difficult job in the world etc etc?? How on earth do they know!

Maybe his thread should be re-titled -
'the most difficult job in the world - find and discuss' !!!

Personally I think the comments on here are exactly the sort the Shanti should be seeing, this is after all an open forum and so be used as such.

Who said it was THE most difficult? I certainly used no superlatives.

And I made the point several times that Shanti should be seeing the range of opinions. I just found the competitive 'I've got it worse than you' aspect tedious.

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I am astonished at some of the comments I have read on this thread.

Shanti asked for a range of opinions, not just a positive, rose tinted view of teaching.

"If they are really fed up they should find another job." - teachers ARE leaving the profession in the proverbial droves! Well paid? I've never heard that teachers do it for the princely salary!

I have to say it's rather disconcerting to see Mums lining up to bash teachers on this thread - surely we should be natural allies with the shared goal of doing the best for our kids?

Good luck, Shanti.

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I have to agree with Bossykate re. the teacher bashing, I have been very shocked by the comments on here, that's mainly why I wrote about my MIL.

To look at teaching on a more positive note, my sister works in a special school and she loves her job,even though it can be emotionally very difficult. I know she would recommend others to do it.

Without teachers we and our children would not be capable to go on to do very much... all of those really important other jobs would not be filled! I cannot believe the bashing teachers are getting here. Teaching is in crisis precisely because it is such a stressful, low status and underpaid profession. As a postgraduate with two degrees I have been considering a PGCE but feel utterly put off. Teachers are not perfect and many teachers, even in the wilds of the west country encounter violent pupils and parents on a daily basis. I know of several teachers who have years of teaching behind them who have had nervous breakdowns because of the stress now involved! Everyone I know who does teach works considerably longer than 9-4 & they certainly don't do it for money. They do it because they care and they want to make a difference. Not because they need an ego boost! Some teachers are crap but IMHO and experience, they are the minority and are quick to be weeded out. I don't think teachers want special privileges but I do think they actually deserve more money, and more status. Paid time to prepare lessons is hardly asking for the world. If teaching is such an easy job why don't we all keep our children at home and teach them ourselves?

I would not want to be a teacher in the state system. I think that they are caught between a rock and a hard place. Some parents seem to expect teachers to do their job entirely and other parents seem to think that they could do a better job themselves. Imagine having 32 opinions on how you do your job!
However, I have a number of friends who teach some in the state sector and some in the private sector. There is no doubt that the state teachers moan alot more than their private counterparts, which suggests that the state system is far from what it could be.
Personally, I think we are going to see the slow errosion of the state education system, just like we are seeing with the NHS and we will end up with a situation where "good" schools are either private or the aided ones: church etc and those completely under state control will be really awful.

A teacher friend of mine has just moved from the state to the private sector, and can't believe how much better she is finding it. Not only does she get parental support, but also the morale of her colleagues is so much better that it makes work much more enjoyable. At her old (state) school she ran an after school science club that actually won a national award - and all her colleagues there said to her was "I don't know why you bother, you won't get any thanks for all your hard work". I can't imagine the head of a private school saying that about something so positively good for both school and pupils!

Still want to teach Shanti? If nothing else, the comments on this thread will prepare you for some of the less rewarding sides of teaching. We definitly don't go into it for the money, in pre-baby days I usually worked for all or most of my holidays to make up the cash shortfall. Be prepared to be not only a teacher, but also a social worker, counsellor, confidant and punching bag. You will be one of the most accessable authority figures, so be prepared to be the butt of parent's frustrations. Be prepared to be amazed at what some parents consider acceptable behaviour in their offspring. I had one father look at me in amazement when I suggested that his 16 year old son threatening to rape one of his female classmates was not the sort of behaviour that was condusive to a good learning environment. He didn't see what the problem was as his son hadn't carried out the rape despite threatening it many times. She was so scared she stopped coming to class.

Yes, you will spend the first week of holidays comatose in bed. I came to teaching relativly late, I've worked two or three jobs at once, but NOTHING prepared me for how exhausting it is. You are performing in front of a very critical audience for hours at a time. You cannot have an off day. You will find it impossible to take sick days, the guilt factor is very strong.

On the good side though, as long as the govt dosen't change the syllabus at a moments notice (Curriculum 2000 anyone?) it does get easier from year to year. The rewards in terms of watching students grow and develop are priceless. In what other job can you have such a profound and lasting effect on peoples lives?

Bugsy, that's a really frightening prediction. Do you really think the state system will break down? I have to say my own experience of education as a child in Cambridge was coloured by the shocking intellectual snobbery, difference in expectations and rivalry that can exist between one educational establishment and another - and that's going back years ago.

Now, I'm seeing the same thing repeated here in SE London. The teachers at my son's new school seem to hold a very exalted opinion of their institution ( the reputation is well earned, but still....) and are openly distainful of his old school. Despite the fact that we chose to move him, I find myself in the strange position of defending the teaching my son got at his old school, and am met with incredulous looks...

I think this is a really good and thought-provoking thread, even if it is depressing reading for Shanti. It's far better to see these messages now before she embarks on teacher training.

I have a fair number of state teacher friends and acqaintances. Please note I am choosing my words carefully here - the are kind, they are giving, they are committed, they are absolutely fanstatic people BUT they are bonkers!

Shambolic, unconventional and studenty are just some of the words I would use to describe their lives outside school. Far more interesting than my boring old life, I can tell you! I have found myself thinking time and time again - are these the people who are teaching my child?

Now are bonkers people attracted to this noble profession or does the stress turn their heads?

I am just going to say one last thing, or rather have one last rant, to reply to some of robinw's staggering comments. I hope your comments regarding 'initiation rites' were nothing to do with what I said about the abuse I got in my first year. If so, I am deeply appalled that you consider a woman having her breasts felt, being scared to turn her back on some people she was forced to be in close proximity to, being worried about walking down a crowded corrider, having erections rubbed up her, being sent pornographic material and special 'love letters' etc etc etc to be acceptable. And you're a supportive parent??? If you had a 14 yr old son, for example, and the school 'phoned up to say he was involved in one of the above, would you really dismiss it as a legitimate initiation rite? Would you feel the same if it was you, or your daughter being treated in this way? I don't think so. Personally I feel 'initiation rites' whatever their nature and no matter what the place of work, are unacceptable bullying, something which you seem to feel is not on, so why accpept this treatment of a new person as normal? And since when does an initiation rite last a whole year, albeit an academic one?
And as I said before, if you don't want your children to go on a school trip, then don't send them. But it is untue and unfair to say that children don't get anything out of them. Maybe yours don't. Maybe they have more opportunities than other children. And I'd thank you to not suggest that I organised school trips to get myself a free holiday. Not only is that offensive, but it also shows your total lack of understanding of the difficulties involved in organising a trip. How many people find it difficult to get out of the house quickly & relatively organised with 1 or 2 children? Now try it with 40 kids, excited, maybe a bit nervous, not having a parent to help them get their things together for the 1st time etc etc. It is not easy, nor is it a feebe. Nor am I a sponger.

Your opinion of teachers seems to be very poor.

I don't think it's true that teachers expect unquestioning support whatever they do. You seem quite happy about teachers leaving the profession in droves. So what happens in a few years time when there aren't enogh teachers to go round? There is already a crisis in some subjects and in some areas. It's pretty blinkered to say 'if you don't like it, leave'. And it's not the case that the people who leave are all bad teachers. It's a situation that needs addressing urgently for the sake of the future education of the nation as a whole. Just because you're lucky enough to have your child/ren in a good school with teachers with whom you're happy (apart from those who selfishly organise trips, of course), that doesn't mean that the same is true for many many families.

Goodness ! A lot of feeling there everyone.. but I still would like to know how YOU are Shanti...

Monkey, your experience sounds horrendous. I am not sure I'd cope in those circumstances, let alone remain in teaching. You must be very dedicated and love the good side of it!

Slug, your thoughts on the positive side of teaching, expresses exactly why I'd been considering doing it...

Shanti, how are you feeling about the response to your question?

Just wondered, say you do your teacher training, how possible is it to job share? If, like shanti, you have children, then working reduced hours would surely lessen the stress and workload - if the money was good enough. I know teacher jobshare posts exist, and IME from the pupil's point of view can work quite well, but do teachers need to work full time first before they can do a jobshare?

Monkey, you last post is really worrying. I must admit I have never heard of any teachers I know mention such awful things happening in their first year - but then the ones I know mostly teach at primaries or do supply teaching at secondary level. Do you think you have been unlucky, or is it a common occurance at other schools?

Oh, and re teacher-bashing: I, too, am very surprised by the amount of vitriol flying around -and not in agreement with many of the anti-teacher views expressed - but if you can't air your views here, where can you do it? Surely here is the perfect place for a bit of frank discussion.