leaving employer on bad terms and reference advice

[Dottydooda]

Hi, it's likely I will be leaving my employer soon on bad terms. (long story but they've made things difficult for me to work my part time days, I've been off with stress - don't want the stress of legal proceedings, want to just cut ties and put behind me).
I'm seeing some agencies this week. Thinking about these agency meetings and forward to potential interviews, would you advise being up front about these issues? The role is a managerial level position, I've never had any other issues at work and my ex managers would give a glowing reference if asked.

I don't think an ex employer is legally allowed to write a bad reference. I think they just say you worked with them from such and such a time, until such time iygwim.
I could be wrong though.

I think you are right - but they can disclose the time I've had off sick with stress can't they? I'm getting paranoid about the whole thing!

Don't think so. It's not anyone's business what time you've had off sick. It's when you've been employed from to, the sickness doesn't have anything to do with it.

Yes they can, my new employees sent my old employer a form they had to fill out for reference and one of the questions was had I been off sick and how long.

You are normallyasked about no.days off sick on the applciation form anyway. References are normally factual. If you resign why would you be leaving on bad terms ? Unless you have breached the terms of contract or code of conduct they can't be unduly negative.

By bad terms I mean that at the time of resigning, it won't be an amicable relationship between my manager and I. There's always the chance that that reference question will come up 'would you re-employ' - I'm sure they might go out of their way to be difficult.
For my next role, I'd find it through an agency - no application forms.

New employers can and do ask about sick days, it is very much their business. And they are allowed to give a poor reference. However, I tend to find agencies are leas strict on references. Can you not give references prior to this employment?

I think your manager will be happy to supply and ok reference, just ask.

It is a common myth that employers are not legally allowed to write a bad reference. They can. You can sue them for libel if they put anything that is incorrect and defamatory but in order to win you would have to show that they did so out of malice towards you.

Having said that, most businesses will not give anyone a bad reference. They may refuse to give a reference or they may only give a factual reference (dates of employment, job title, etc.) but a genuinely bad reference is very rare. And many employers view references with a degree of scepticism these days, so a poor reference may not stop you from getting a job.

Does your employer have an HR department? If so it may be worth talking to them about your concerns.

They can certainly disclose the number of days absent, although the reason for the absence is classed as 'sensitive' personal information and therefore not disclosable.

They can also give a 'bad' reference as long as it is factual and can be substantiated. For example, if there was reems of evidence of you being very bad at a particular aspect of your job, and it had been raised with you on numerous occasions, they could mention that.

In practice many employers only give dates anyway, and most would give just dates rather than anything negative even where they do have evidence to avoid problems.

If you're concerned about your manager being negative, speak to HR and ask if you can give their details and ask them to send out a basic dates only reference.

Sorry prh47, posted mine while screen from this morning was up so didn't see your post, apologies it looks like I completely ignored what you said

They do have to give you a reference but they know they will be asked so..It actually depends on the next employer and what they ask actually

No problem flowery

And no, Putthatbookdown, they do not have to give a reference. Some employers refuse to give references to any employee.

They can't do a bad reference, but can refuse to do one which is as good as a bad one, hope it helps n good luck with the agencies

Why do people persist in posting the myth that employers cannot give bad references? They can and do. There is absolutely no legal bar to giving a bad reference. They could face libel action from the employee concerned but they would be able to use the defence of qualified privilege, which means they are safe unless the employee can prove the poor reference was given out of malice.

Spring v Guardian Assurance the employer has a duty of care to provide a reasonable and honest fact based reference. If they breach this duty then they are liable for damages.

It is not libel and no need to prove malice

Yes, negligence is an alternative to libel in this situation and may be easier to win. But it doesn't alter the fact that employers can and do give bad references. To quote from your link, "Unfavourable comments about the employee should be confined to matters into which reasonable investigation has been made and there must be reasonable grounds for believing the statements to be true".

I would be completely honest about the situation, then whatever comes up in references and your absence record does not come as a surprise. But, tell the agencies and any potential employers about your previous work history, that you have previous employers that can provide excellent references, and most importantly, what you have learned from what has happened (even if it is largely not your fault - talk about acknowledging problems, seeking help and advice, strategies for managing stress etc).

I have been in a not dissimilar situation. I am about to start my dream job, one that is very competitive and hard to come by. I was totally upfront about it, it was on the application form because there was some time out I needed to account for, and I talked about it at interview. Some people thought I was mad for taking that approach, but I figured it was better addressed head on than coming up in pre-employment checks after I had glossed over it. It worked for me, and at least I know it can't come back to bite me on the bum now .

Despite once thinking that I had killed my career, I now realise that these things are actually quite common, and there is much to be said about you if you can overcome them. More people understand this than you might think.

Good luck.

I knew someone who got a job because of her bad reference! I used to work with her, she was very good at her job. Boss didn't want her to go so wrote a bad reference (she also used to write excellent references for people she wanted to get rid of!)

New employer was so intrigued by difference in bad reference to friend's other references that she guessed what was happening and wanted to see for herself :o and friend got the job at the end of it.

So it is worth making sure that your other references will be good...