Would you give your job up on a matter of principle? Should I?

[dontagreewithit]

I posted back in February about how unhappy I was with the redundancy process that my company was putting my teams through, and how unhappy I was to have to be involved in it.

I am a senior manager in a professional services organisation, with responsibility for support teams across 3 sites. I have been doing the job for a year, and have (it is generally agreed) done a good job and been successful.

I understand that as a senior manager in a small organisation, I have to be able to do difficult things, and to make difficult decisions, and I (think) I have come to terms with that.

However, I have been "consulted" today by group directors on how we are to further cut costs. One of the "suggestions" (ie they've made their minds up, but pretend that others' opinions will be considered) is that we get rid of one of our technical team and some of the admin people. This will account for 10% of the costs that we need to cut.

This would be bad enough; I have worked hard to ensure that my teams have confidence in me and after the awful week of hell in February where the teams were decimated, I told them that as far as I was concerned the teams are as small as they can realistically be. To make more redundancies now would really undermine their faith in me. The real killer for me though is that the technical person they want to get rid of handed his notice in a couple of months ago; he had a good job offer which would have been a great opportunity for him. However, with the encouragement and backing of the board, we persuaded him to stay with the company, and offered him more money.

I am horrified at the thought of the conversation that I would have to have with this person (although we would have to go through the full redundancy process again which also fills me with dread) "sorry we persuaded you to stay and you've lost that opportunity, but we actually don't need you"

I feel this is the final straw, and for me could be a resignation issue. However, I don't have a job to go to. I am fairly confident I could find a job within a couple of months, although I do realise it may not be as "good" a job as I would like. We have no savings, so would have to live off credit cards.

Is this just madness? Do I have to go against all my principles and ethics for the sake of having an income (until I can find something else)?

It's up to you but I think you would be crazy to give up a job with nothing to go to and no savings in this climate. You say you would get a job quickly, are there even jobs where you are?

Redundancy sucks and yes, that guy will be hurt and pissed off as will the rest of your team but a sympathy resignation won't pay your bills. If you want a new job get one but have it in line before your notice goes in.

You acted in good faith, you didn't lie, you truley believed what you said. I'm sure they l ow tgat at heart, even though it might not show.

I know that is the sensible answer, but I really am struggling with squaring doing "what is necessary" with what I believe is the right and ethical way to behave.

I guess it means I'm not cut out for the job .

I just feel stupid and like I must be a mug.

I am so fed up with working for small organisations with "personalities" at the top. I would like to work within the anonymity of a larger organisation now, I think. Surely that's got to be less stressful?

Madness. I would be livid as well, but living off credit cards?

I would start looking for a new job.

Do not fall on your sword on this occasion. Principles are wonderfull but costly things and you should have a plan B in place. Credit card living is not a plan B

"I am so fed up with working for small organisations with "personalities" at the top. I would like to work within the anonymity of a larger organisation now, I think. Surely that's got to be less stressful?"

I really wouldn't bet on it! I worked in a big organisation, and you still get pressure from the top and the management layers close to you still have "personalities".

Sorry but I agree, I worked for a global banking group, the manager the the centre I worked for a was a complete fruitloop. The only way to explain it to you is of you think about religion (stay with me) you get splinter groups who have started out with the same ways of doing things, the same beliefs, but gradually someone gets to tge top and guides them slightly away from the rest and eventually it is nothing like the rest. That's where I ended up!

Just lost a v long post so will summarise.

I stepped down from a management role after returning from ML to a very different workplave than I had left.

My mgt style was incompatible with the entirely new senior team who'd been replaced over the course of my pregnancy/ML. I could not (and would not) become the manager they role-modelled. I wrote in my resignation letter my reasons hoping hr would follow it up. They haven't.

I agree that principles are costly (I have lost a third of my income), but mostly I would say that they are meaningless in a work environment inconducive to any kind of consultation/negotiation. I also came up against the "tell us what you think (even though we've decided already) so we can blame you for it if it goes wrong".

They won't change because you leave. It will just be a place where there is no one to fight your corner and try to change them.

I was the 6th at my level to resign, step down or transfer, in 14 months. No one cares. I work in a large corporation. There are arsehole senior managers all over. I have never worked for an entire team of them before though. I have 15+ years service.

DP's manager resigned last week because he refused to make dp and another person redundant after only 2 months of working for the company.

Dp was laid off anyway, someone else had to do it (senior management were all out of the building at the time )

We will be forever grateful to him and will find a way to repay him at some point. That doesn't really help him pay his mortgage this month, though or us ours

My rather rambly point being, it'll happen anyway. If you can't live with yourself, and can afford to eat while you look, then a clean conscience is important. If your family will go hungry because you don't work, then do it in the most respectful way you can.

In my experience it is not whether it is bigger or smaller -it is the job you have that counts. A bigger firm has more jobs and are more likely to have HR Union etc so you can be moved if you have trouble with someone In a smaller firm you just have to leave.

Working for a bigger firm I certainly wouldn't want you to think that people are handled with any more integrity than at your place. I try not to have regrets but I am hugely sad that I didn't take Volontary Redundancy when it was offered last year now that I can see how the organisation and department has changed.

It is completely and utterly crap working somewhere which completely crosses your moral boundaries, but then not paying the bills is not so good either.

Look it sounds as if this company is not for you so get your CV up to scratch and start looking then resign once you have found something else. In the meantime you may have to do some rubbish things and yes the people will blame you and don't really need your angst on top of everything else - tbh it sounds as if this technical person is best out of it, save your fight on something that might be achievable which is getting him the best redundancy package you can.

Resigning now may give you satisfaction but it won't pay the bills and it will be difficult to explain at interviews.

Thanks for all of your thoughts. It's really getting me down and what is most frustrating is that I know that if I resign, the people at the top won't care. They will be annoyed that they've lost my skills and the work I do, but they will say "well, she obviously wasn't cut out for it, better she's gone" and carry on as they are.

I do think it would have an impact "on the ground", and could be a catalyst for people in my teams to start leaving.

The other thing I didn't mention in my OP (sorry, didn't intent to drip feed) is that I am aware that they are about to make another member of staff redundant. I won't have to be involved in the process (well, I will refuse), but she is a friend of mine, much more than a colleague, and I am really conflicted as to whether I should tell her. How can I look her in the face on Monday knowing what is going to happen, but pretending it's all fine?

I have got my CV updated, and have applied to some jobs. Time to step it up a notch I guess...

Dp is in touch with his now ex colleagues. 1/3 have resigned/fired last week. Another 1/3 are actively looking because they no longer trust the company. Afaik, that's of the total (small) workforce, not a team within a larger organisation. So, even if Hari Kiri Boss had stayed, it would have been in an atmosphere of tension and mistrust alongside his own pricking conscience.

Oh, and this could be enough to send the company under so no one's job is secure!

Had a good weekend, am not looking forward to going back to work tomorrow.

Will be meeting with the group MD who will be no doubt explaining to me how the only way forward is to cut more staff, including my friend and the technical guy.

I will (again) be making my feelings clear about the situation, but it's difficult to find a come back to "well its either that or everyone will go sooner or later".

Have applied for 2 more jobs over the weekend & am coming to terms with the fact that I may have to take up to 20% less pay elsewhere.

I'm struggling in a similar way but around different issues.

New owners, immoral if not illegal tax avoidance issues, cost cutting whilst no control over marketing ( director is their personal friend) ignoring certain HMRC requirements.

I am very well paid with a lot of flexibility over my hours (which I doubt I'd find elsewhere).

But a little bit of me dies everyday

Sorry you are in a similar situation losingitall. It's really shit, isn't it.

I am better paid in this role than ever before. Nowhere near as much as some of the other senior managers, but enough that for the first time ever I have been able to not worry about money & treat dh & the dd's if I've felt like it. I know money isn't everything, but it has been so nice these last month's, not worrying.

I now realise that when you get to a certain level of pay there are sacrifices you have to make & I am finding out how far I am willing to go with these sacrifices - do they include my principles?

Dp's ex boss is going for constructive dismissal. Just saying, like...

Making people redundant is one of the worst things a manager has to do. It's shit but do it you have to.

If you leave, the company does not skip a beat. At least whilst you are looking for another job, you can fight your team's corner as best you can. You are decent person. But you must also look out for yourself and your family.

This is why I'm so conflicted. I know that my job can't be all sweetness and light. I went through what was probably the most stressful week of my life in Feb this year, where 25% of my team were made redundant, & the only way I got through it was by telling myself it was first the greater good of the rest of the teams.

To have to go through it again because the whim of the directors has changed (& there have been plenty of other people 'got rid of' seemingly on a white over the time I've worked for the group) just feels like more than I can take.

It's really having an effect on my confidence in my abilities. Am I just not up to the role I have been put in? If so, how will I ever get another job in a similar position?

If you feel that strongly about it then find another job and leave. However, don't assume that the grass is greener on the other side. I have had many jobs in many companies and if it's not one thing it's something else.

To be honest, I am sick to the back teeth of employer attitudes these days hence I now work for myself and set my own rules.

How did this week go, dontagreewithit?

I would be looking for another job anyway, if thats only 10% of what they need to cut then the place probably hasn't got much longer till it goes under and everyone is out of a job.

How is it going now?had any feedback from the jobs you applied for?

I was working for a small (about 22 people) company for a few years, and whereas it was okay at first, I was treated well, my skills recognised and appreciated, weekend work (at no extra pay) appreciated... This deteriorated hugely. I died a little each day ... Was blamed for things I had no say over, shouted at and verbally abused by a stressed and rude, workaholic of a boss.

I (and others) were made redundant and then the company closed. This was a few years ago... I vowed to never have a boss again and have been self employed ever since. Huge career change but 7 years down the line, all is good.

Get out while your soul is intact. But find that job first. All the best!