Is this a sackable offence?

[TroubleIsBrewing]

Looking for some information from anyone with a bit of experience. I have limited HR knowledge but not sure about this one, anyway, here is the story!

Shop opens at 6am, staff arrive at 5.30am. One member of staff turns up, supervisor with keys does not. Staff member doesn't have a phone so has to wait for a delivery to turn up (7.30am) to phone supervisor who has slept in. Shop opens at 8am. Supervisor decides to alter clocking in times so that they both get paid. Neither mention the incident to anyone. Fast forward a week and both are suspended.

Are they likely to both get sacked? Thanks in advance.

OP, you the supervisor?

Hope you're okay OP and that you and your loved ones aren't involved with this.

No, not the supervisor. I'm on maternity leave, is my shop

I mean, i'm the manager of the shop, is a national chain.

Paid until hearing unless sacked in which case money is taken back. *WRONG they can not do this

Supervisor suspended for fraud, lateness and not telling his manager about incident.

Staff member suspended for collusion to fraud, not seeking help sooner that morning and not telling their supervisor's manager about incident. there was no collusion, the staff member clocked in when they entered the building, and thats rubbish not telling the sup's manager do they want to be called everytime their is a complain? What resonable steps could the staff member make?

If it turned out that supervisor had told staff member that they had changed the times and then asked them not to tell anyone, would that make a difference to 'guilt' of staff member? might do might not, if the staff member had no reason to question it, they just wanted to make sure that they were paid.

Thanks so much for all your help, trying to cover all eventualities.

There is no proof that staff member clocked in at 8am, no CCTV on clocking in machine and time had been altered on PC where info gets sent.

What a mess :( It is nothing to do with me really but both members of staff have contacted me for advice. Which they know and I know that they shouldn't be doing, but they are my friends as well as colleagues.

Who would have access to the pc to change it?

Any supervisor since (happened a week ago). However supervisor in question admitted today to changing the times the morning it happened.

When did the big boss know, and when were they suspended?

Big boss found out today (customer complaint from HQ) and both suspended today.

I know this is a side issue, but aren't you legally entitled to an 11 hour break between shifts?

Yes, sorry typo in my previous post, 11 hours. Lots of that going on apparently, as well as non-supervisors holding keys etc. Feel like its all my fault, I should be there.

As the supervisor has admitted the clocking, S/he is in a major disciplinary situation as it could be classed as fraud. Whether it's a sacking offence depends on company policy, and mitigating circumstances, which should come out in investigation (moral of story - better to put hands up for first problem - the lateness - and take the consequences).

For the non-supervisor, things are looking a bit better. Depending on what the device looks like, it's much more reasonable to say they were unaware of the clocking (especially if the supervisor could have made the clocking changes quickly, so non-supervisor had no reason to think they were doing anything untoward just from their actions, time at machine etc).

Their previous conduct may be relevant. For the supervisor, in terms of lateness and record keeping; for the non-supervisor anything that could undermine their credibility for truthfulness?

No op it isn't your fault, I been in your place and now the best thing you can do is keep out of it. Please do not be dragged into it

Supervisor was very foolish. She'd have probably got away with the lateness (v v poor to expect someone in at 5.30am after an 11pm finish), but the fraud is probably going to be gross misconduct.

I can't really see an issue for her colleague though. She was on time and ready to work so should have been paid in any case. I'd have thought it would be difficult to prove collusion re: clocking in change if she had no access to the system.

Not your fault op.

Would the non supervisor even.be supposed to.know who was due to open the shop that morning? If it could have been any number of sups then they arent exactly going to call them all.

Both exemplary employees. New manager is less than desirable though and has been disciplined in the past for bullying the Supervisor. Only reason I can think that he did what he did was because he was fucking terrified of the consequences.

You are right of course BlackOut it is best that I keep out of it. I am just so angry and hurt and hormonal. Thanks so much for your words of wisdom tonight.

I can't see the non supervisor has done much wrong at all. He/she turned up at work at the right time, so should be paid from 5-30 onwards anyway, the fact thete was no work for them to do, isn't theory problem. Adjusting the timesheet reflects the reality of the situation.

I think the superviser is 100% in the wrong and the other worker 0%. Very few people would go above their immediate boss to complain about them so I think it would be really unfair if they were punished. For not getting help - how could they? Not fair imb.

I would imagine the supervisor may get dismissed, but with mitigating circumstances of having worked too late the previous night might have it reduced to a final warning. Difficult though, because you can't have anyone in a position of responsibility in a company who commits fraud.

Non-supervisor will probably get a warning - not reporting the fraud is serious so he will need to convince whoever that he genuinely knew nothing about it at all. Not making more effort to contact someone is also not good.

It sounds like either the same or very similar set up to the company I used to work for (bakery). And I have been on both sides of sleeping in incidents! In the supervisor's position though I would have paid the staff member as normal but not myself and let my area manager know. I'm not an employment expert at all but what I expect would have happened in my work is staff member would get a formal warning, supervisor probably demoted, possibly sacked if they had other previous issues. Are they in a union?

theft of time is theft of money,sounds obvious to me but.....

Not sure that the employee has done anything wrong at all.

If the employer doesnt provide phones for staff to use then they cant whinge if employee doesnt have one of his own. Also did the employer have a 'in the event of difficulty phone this number' sign at the door? Again, if not then the employer has no right to expect the employee to have memorised the company phone book.

Does the employer have a clear procedure for employees to whistleblow? Again if not then they cant expect employees to work it out for themselves.

I'm afraid the supervisor is for the high jump.

Company policy or otherwise, most workers have a right to 11 hours rest between shifts - it might be sensible for the supervisor to ring the Pay & Work Rights helpline to get their take on this - they could mention to the company that their being sacked would lead to a tribunal re non-compliance with law on daily rest. www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/WorkingHoursAndTimeOff/DG_10029451

Sorry, www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/WorkingHoursAndTimeOff/DG_10029451